whoa it do be making my almond activate

>>745199190 (OP) #
Based house enjoyer

>>745199190 (OP) #
Gameplay is the point, you are wrong.

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>>745199190 (OP) #
>enter the house
>head straight into the basement

I like the one on the right more because it implies it was carefully thought out.

>>745199285 #
>gameplay fag can't read
Why am I not surprised

>>745199190 (OP) #
both fundamentaly wrong

>>745199285 #
>he digs into the foundation
>entire house crumbles

>>745199190 (OP) #
>gameplay isn't the actual point
retarded image

>>745199190 (OP) #
this was made by someone who only plays sony games

>>745199190 (OP) #
>gameplay is the foundation
sure
>after a certain point the effort should...
No. You're retarded and just trying to defend garbage movie games.
There's no "after a certain point". You should always be refining the gameplay and making it as good as possible and you absolutely should not sacrifice gameplay for the "experience".

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>>745199342 #
>the gameplay was pretty weak, did not get to the story 2/10

>>745199190 (OP) #
>the experience is holistic and can't be separated out into its elements
*removes the living room from the house*
*mutes the music in the game*
What now?

>>745199369 #
It's not, do you know the definition of a MEDIUM

>>745199342 #
That's a pretty accurate metaphor for pretentious shit games, where you can't actually focus on the gameplay at all because as soon as you do the entire "experience" crumbles.

>>745199190 (OP) #
>gameplay
>but isnt the actual point
>GAMEplay isnt the actual point of a videoGAME
Surely the person who came up with this retarded image in the OP isnt a redditor fan of AAA walking simulators

>>745199190 (OP) #
I prefer the heliocentric model.
Everything revolves around gameplay. Certain aspects can be pretty and admirable but without the gameplay they would not even be seen.

>>745199190 (OP) #
>I'm a homeowner fuck
>I look at games and think of houses

>>745199496 #
>MOVING isn't the actual point of a MOVIE
Yep, names are arbitrary

>>745199190 (OP) #
Right is objectively correct.

>>745199523 #
But it is though, you fucking idiot. MOVIES are made of MOVING inages. VideoGAMES are GAMES.
you are RETARDED

>two metaphors
Opinion discarded

What's content? While I get his point his metaphor is weak because can't just not have a bunch of those rooms? They're separated from each other so it's not really holistic so it just kinda becomes the plate metaphor while saying gameplay is foundational.

>>745199579 #
But the MOVEMENT of the images is not the point, it's just the way of conveying the experience which is the story, characters, acting etc

If the movie is good you can remove the moving images and be left with a good book

>>745199190 (OP) #
Neither. It is both the main foundation and the whole point of the game everything else is secondary and can't stand on it's own without good gameplay.

Fellas, how do I add context to my game?

>>745199373 #
This is not true, Chrono Trigger is one of the best games of all time and it's just a basic JRPG that goes all in on the experience, visuals, music etc

On the other hand Noita is just an indie curiosity despite going all out on gameplay but sacrificing everything else in the process

>>745199190 (OP) #
The thing /v/ talks about the least when seething about a game is the gameplay. Open any thread and people will be crying about
>women, minorities, LGBT?
>political ideology of the developers
>graphics?
>newer entry in an old franchise
>popular youtuber video to ape the opinions of
>none of the above? Scream about Jews

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>>745199190 (OP) #
I am the king of food analogies and I will share my wisdom.
Gameplay = Food Taste
Graphics = Food Appearance
Juice/SFX = Food Smell
Music = Ambience where you eat (i.e. fancy restaurant or trashy, messy, store. Either way you can just pack up the food and take it home, aka put your own music)
For a 10/10 meal, every element matters of course, and it's important to match them together. (You can't serve sloppy texmex meal in a fancy elegant restaurant without some dissonance) but at the end of the day taste is valued the most. Some people are willing to pay for blander taste as long as the other elements are more refined though, or if the experience is something "different".

>>745199651 #
If you don't have walls you don't have a house, if you don't have context you don't have a game

Why is there hate for movie games when they aren't even bad? The real cancer in gaming is the gacha and live service games

>>745199639 #
Good gameplay also can not stand on its own without nice visuals. I could give you a mechanically perfect game tailored exactly to your tastes and you wouldn't play it if it had terrible aesthetics. Gameplay and visuals are equally important.

>>745199692 #
In this case gameplay would be nutrition, the experience would be the taste

Doesn't matter how good Concord plays, no one cared to play it because the experience/taste was shit, even if it was a good shooter/nutritious meal, people simply didn't like it

>>745199373 #
OP's framing is wrong but so is yours. Gameplay IS the "experience".

>>745199728 #
There is literally nothing wrong with live service games because they're still games. Movie games aren't.

>>745199759 #
>Gameplay IS the "experience".
No, it's how the experience is conveyed

>>745199728 #
If video games should be taken seriously as an art form, then movie games are a self-defeating dead end that drags the medium backward rather than forward.

>>745199759 #
No. Seeing the effect of the gameplay is the experience. If you played Monster Hunter but instead of a dinosaur you're hitting an unanimated grey blob that doesn't visibly and audibly react to getting hit, you would stop playing.

>>745199672 #
Well that tracks because you can spend 300 hours in noita and then waste 10 minutes in chrono trigger before realizing it has a Microsoft Excel battle system where you click on rows of text before uninstalling it

>>745199373 #
That's overly reductive. If your game has any music at all or graphics more complex than grey squares, then you have logically stopped putting effort into the gameplay and moved on to something else

You can view it from what audiences actually accept, and what the players are like.

Some are mega adhd, they need constant interactivity and dont get any enjoyment from the narrative.
Some retain spoken dialogue and text they read, and enjoy thinking about the themes and character arcs.
Some people play sports games and others think they're made for aliens.
So you don't pretend theres 1. an objective ranking of game elements, 2. that you can talk about games without considering genre and target audience. Player expectations matter for the dicussion.

Since theres different holistic approaches to games they probably need to be thought as gameplay loop first, and then consider how different elements work both in isolation and together. Tetris has a gameplay loop that doesn't promote discussing narrative, characters or music, so you need to get that out of the way first.

>>745199692 #
Music is the sauce for me. Sometimes it elevates a mediocre taste into heavens, sometimes you straight up steal it and use it for other food

>>745199860 #
>before uninstalling
You can certainly do that if you're a low iq ADHD zoomer zombie

>>745199615 #
>But the MOVEMENT of the images is not the point
Yes it fucking is!
https://www.etymonline.com/word/movi>shortened form of moving picture in the cinematographic sense
>Since 1912
The name of the medium conveys what is is! Just like the -GAME part of a videoGAME!
You are RETARDED!

>>745199907 #
I don't think you understand the definition of a point

>>745199672 #
>Chrono Trigger is one of the best games of all time and it's just a basic JRPG that goes all in on the experience,
Wrong.
The classic problem with you faggots is that you think just because you don't like a type of gameplay that means it's bad and not refined.

>>745199947 #
>wrong
That's correct though

>>745199892 #
2 options:
- You show me your latest achievement row from Noita

- You stop replying and embarassing yourself further

>>745199190 (OP) #
Yeah, because Teris is well known for it's story, only Gameplay and Music matters in gaming

>>745199885 #
>then you have logically stopped putting effort into the gameplay and moved on to something else
The idea that hiring someone to make music for the game somehow gets in the way of the guy hired to work on the gameplay is wrong and retarded.

While
>>745199672 #
Noita has a very distinct visual style, sound design, and music plus there's literally massive hidden lore and story . It's gameplay heavy but hardly at the expense of everything else, if anything gameplay is in service of a really fucking weird story.

>>745199986 #
>prove you played my slop!
I don't feel the need to

>>745200015 #
That's money that could've went to more guys that work on the gameplay

>>745199936 #
I do though, it's just you dont have one.

>>745199190 (OP) #
>the game part of a videogame isn’t important
Seems kinda stupid ngl

>>745200064 #
You don't, because you think people watch movies for the movement, that when they go out to the cinema or sit down to watch a movie at home they think "I want to see some movement" and put on any movie at all because they all have movement and movement is the point, right?

>>745200065 #
Where did you get that in an image that likens gameplay to the literal foundation

>>745199803 #
You're fucking retarded. The experience and the "art" of gameplay is the way it hijacks your brain and pushes you into an abstract mode of thinking. In order to play a game well, you need to "care" about and apply certain abstract truths you don't necessarily pay attention to in real life. Artistically meaningful gameplay is one that takes advantage of this. The observed existence of the Tetris effect is proof that gameplay is a form of art, and a very powerful one.

>>745200117 #
You're describing the point of movie adaptations. They tie MOVING PICTURES to a written story. That's what makes them interesting and worth watching even if you've read the book already
I love it when retards like you earn self-goals while trying to sound smart

>>745199190 (OP) #
You can like a painting for composition, subject matter, storytelling, technical execution, use of the medium, emotional impression, all sorts of things. There's no objective metric on what element matters most in principle, only what matters to each individual.

>>745199856 #
See >>745200213 #

>3 images
certified bored phoneposter thread

>>745200013 #
>>745200213 #
>muh Tetris
How much of your daily gameplay consist of Tetris, in hours

>>745200015 #
Then the metaphor of the house shouldn't bother you, it will be different people working on all those extra elements

>>745199190 (OP) #
>Gameplay is best represented by the part of the house you don't interact with
a Sony fan must have made this

>>745200050 #
There are diminishing returns. More people working on a game stops making it better and starts making it worse.

>>745200235 #
But why would you go out of your way to watch a movie based on a book you read when you can watch any movie, since all movies have movement and movement is the point, you're not making any sense

Stuff like this is boring because the answer is boring. It's a matter of taste and expectation. You know it, I know it. Some people don't want to play a game like DOTA where it's autistic tactics and strategy and the art isn't really the point. Some people don't want to play those interactive movie games.

I would personally consider something that focuses on the gameplay more true to being a "game" and more generally important. I might like a VN but it's not really because it's a game.

>>745199672 #
>Chrono Trigger is one of the best games of all time
Pffffffffft Pokemon Red Version is a more feature complete game.

>>745200306 #
You don't interact with gameplay, gameplay is the means with which you interact with the experience

>>745200284 #
You did not understand my post, moronic faggot.

>>745200295 #
The problem isn't the metaphor, is the second line that you should put effort on some "the experience"
.The house metaphor would actually imply you should put most of your work on making sure the gameplay is as polished as possible, otherwise the whole thing collapses.

>>745199729 #
>Good gameplay also can not stand on its own without nice visuals
Lmao snoy issue

>>745200373 #
You didn't make a good post retard

>>745200350 #
>Empiricism is the only thing that matters
>What is deriving conclusions from first principles
NPC response

>
>

>>745200279 #
/thread

>>745200151 #
The part that says it isn’t the point. Gameplay is the only point of playing a videogame. If not you might as well just remove the game part and watch a video instead.

>>745200367 #
Wrong. Deadly Premonition if a wonderful "experience"... On youtube. If you actually play it yourself it fucking sucks.

>>745199947 #
So true, God of War 2018 and Ragnarok are amazing games

>>745200416 #
sounds like nonsense made up to force conversations that we don't really need to have and any conclusions we make will ultimately bow to empiricism from normal people who don't want to have autistic debates

>>745200424 #
>The part that says it isn’t the point.
It's not the point, it's the means with which you get to a point
>Gameplay is the only point of playing a videogame.
Wrong
>If not you might as well just remove the game part and watch a video instead.
Then you didn't play a game

>>745200327 #
>to watch a movie based on a book you read
to see moving pictures based on the book
>when you can watch any movie, since all movies have movement and movement is the point
Exactly. You cna watch a racing move for moving cars, a michael bay movie for explosions and a chinese fighting movie for moving pictures of retards beating each other bloody.
Another self-goal for you! Moving pictures is the point, what kind of moving pictures you want to see defines the genre!

>>745200460 #
>Why do you care?

>>745200452 #
The fact that you think chrono trigger is the jrpg equivalent of gow just proves you don't like JRPGS in the first place and thus your judgement is not trustworthy.

>>745199190 (OP) #
Gameplay is the entire house
the foundation, the walls roof, all the facilities inside, the furniture, and everything you interact with
visual, music, and story are the painting on the walls, the path to the entrance, lights you hang up to make more use of the backyard (which the backyard is gameplay), and other superfluous factors.

>>745200507 #
>>to see moving pictures based on the book
Why would you care they're based on the book
>You cna watch a racing move for moving cars, a michael bay movie for explosions and a chinese fighting movie for moving pictures of retards beating each other bloody.
You're describing things that aren't movement but are instead conveyed by movement, sound like you agree with me

>>745199190 (OP) #
The right, except at the bottom is music/sound design rather than gameplay.

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What the fuck is a "side dish"? Do Americans really put every part of the meal on a separate plate?

>>745199856 #
>If you played Monster Hunter but instead of a dinosaur you're hitting an unanimated grey blob that doesn't visibly and audibly react to getting hit, you would stop playing.
/v/ is so autistic that many people probably wouldn't. Movie games made /v/ hate everything even slightly cool or cinematic in vidya, now every game must have as much abstraction as possible and if it dares to try and look good then it's le slop.

>>745199190 (OP) #
the second is right, a good foundation is important if your gameplay is shit the whole house crumbles and you now longer have a game but a pile of rubble

>>745200508 #
i just want people to have conversations from the position of taste because that's actually real and not pretend that there's any kind of objectivity involved with consumption of art because it has never stopped feeling like a combination of general social posturing and bullshitting to try and encourage an argument about nothing

>>745199392 #
Yeah it's someone who can communicate with ghosts, nothing to do with video games.

I'm someone who often values aesthetics over gameplay but I can't agree with the house analogy, that's often how you get games that do the bare minimum or rely heavily on established templates to meet an obligation of gameplay.

Thinking about the holistic whole it can be truly impossible to say gameplay exist outside of the whole on its own

Lots of games have invisible math working in the background that reacts to player inputs and works out if something happens, but the player doesn't see the math. They see the art and animations that have been glued on top to somewhat match the underlying math. You can screw up the gameplay with the art, or make it better.
The "gameplay" relies on you visually seeing an object in the world to make a decision, and how enjoyable that loop is depends on the art and how the level of built up.
You rely on sounds a lot of the time to compensate for busy visuals or being unable to ensure player witnesses a key event. Like combat music is usually the 1st thing that tells the player an npc was triggered to begin combat.
And of course the motivation to engage in gameplay can be zero unless the game has some narrative motivation, or a promised reward that isn't heavily interactive. So for you to feel pleasure clicking the mouse to hack up and enemy it needs to inside the holistic system with sounds, art, promise of a reward, narrative engagement. One of the most gamified motivators is the world of warcraft quest completion jingles, xp pop up, level up events with the music and visuals that tell your brain "good job"

>>745200556 #
What if you want games with a certain vibe rather than games with certain actions? People play stuff like Skyrim not for the sake of gameplay but for the sake of simulating a fantasy adventurer life, the gameplay is very explicitly not the point but a means to an end. That seems a bit more important than "panting on the wall".

>>745200651 #
Name some games that have absolute dogshit gameplay but that you still loved because of aesthetics

>>745199190 (OP) #
Gameplay is always king.

>>745200558 #
>Why would you care they're based on the book
Because they're moving. Why would I care about a story that I've read and know already?
>conveyed by movement
I'll give you another chance to embarrass yourself. Go on! How is genre conveyed by movement?

>>745200723 #
>>Because they're moving. Why would I care about a story that I've read and know already?
Why watch a movie based on a book in particular when you could watch any movie, they all have movement, this is the third time you dodged the question
>I'll give you another chance to embarrass yourself. Go on! How is genre conveyed by movement?
What the fuck are you talking about

>>745199190 (OP) #
Gameplay is the point rest is to sell it for people

>>745200320 #
So how many gameplay guys do you need to hire before that point is reached and you can start hiring music guys

>>745199190 (OP) #
Consider something like Crime Scene Cleaner vs Viscera Cleanup Detail.
They're similar, but the underlying narrative in CSS adds so much to the experience. And the levels are staged in interesting ways to support the story. Even though you never actually interact with any of the characters, and nothing would change gameplay-wise if you ignore the dialogue entirely, it would end up being a lot less fun with no storyline.

>>745200674 #
NTA but the original Altered Beast
Maybe not "absolute dogshit" but it's pretty clunky and doesn't feel very good to play, yet the aesthetics are metal as hell

>>745199729 #
Not true. I've put thousands of hours into spreadsheet games.

>>745200845 #
Name some, so I can tell you they're actual casual baby games

>>745199651 #
You don't need context. If your game is abstract then that's what it is.

>>745200768 #
>dodged
>what kind of moving pictures you want to see defines the genre!
You are such a retard! How did you miss such a simple point from earlier?
>What the fuck are you talking about
You tell me, retard! You said
>things that aren't movement but are instead conveyed by movement
So how is genre conveyed by movement? Dont get shy now!

>>745200901 #
Fourth time you avoided answering why you would see a movie based on a book instead of any other movie, sounds like you're afraid of the answer anon

>>745200257 #
You can like a painting, but you don't but a photograph in a painting exhibit and say, "paint doesnt matter"

I'm currently playing Vampire the Masquerade: Redemption, and it's definitely worse than Bloodlines. The combat is equally braindead in both games, you just left click and win. However, in Redemption, you mostly do dungeon diving where you have to fight dozens of enemies, whereas in Bloodlines that only happens towards the end of the game. What do you call it when a game is better because it has less of the bad gameplay? I suppose for RPGs, reading dialogue and finishing quests can be counted as part of the gameplay?

>ITT: Snoys arguing over their glorified QTE filled with VNs.

>>745200883 #
Aurora 4x

>>745200674 #

Porn games
Slay the princess
Faith
Anno 2205

>>745200672 #
>but for the sake of simulating a fantasy adventurer life
that is gameplay
what is the simulation but the actions you are taking?

you are unironically arguing that gameplay is more important and what sets the vibe of the rest of the game

>>745201019 #
I kneel

>>745200367 #
>You don't interact with gameplay
Can you explain why you think playing a game isnt interacting with gameplay?

>>745201029 #
>that is gameplay
Nope, that's the experience, that is conveyed through the gameplay

You can simulate a fantasy adventurer life in tons of different gameplay ways

>>745201095 #
He's making a semantic point, that you don't "interact" with the gameplay, because "interaction" itself is the gameplay

>>745201029 #
>what is the simulation but the actions you are taking?
The scenarios you find yourself in? That's the foremost thing.
>you are an adventurer in the world of sword and sorcery
is primary
>you can fight with melee weapons and cast spells
is derivative of that primary concept. It wouldn't exist without that concept.

>>745199190 (OP) #
In a good RPG gameplay, story and context work together. The gameplay simulates your character's actions in the story.

visual, voice acting and music are totally optional and honestly should be avoided if they take away too many resources from the gameplay.

>>745199190 (OP) #
The left, obviously. Unless every game in the Tetris and Pong era 'werent real games' despite establishing video games as we will always know it. And those were pure gameplay. To say the story is the foundation is to say a game cannot be made without a story, which is objectively untrue. In MOST cases even, this is untrue.

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>>745200279 #
>>745200417 #
Would you be "happier" if i "posted an image"?

>>745201020 #
>Slay the princess
It's a VN, what gameplay did you expect

>>745201204 #
Nigga you can't read

>>745200568 #
Because it's on the side of the dish, next to the main course. Stop reading too much into things.

>>745201121 #
>that is conveyed through the gameplay
anon.....
>tons of different gameplay ways
yes anon.... what you are describing is that gameplay is what provides this

as I said
everything goes through the gameplay
it IS the house
it IS everything you engage with
the experience you are trying to describe is the culmination of gameplay, it is multiple gameplay systems, that isn't a separate thing... that is just gameplay and the culmination of gameplay
you are describing what happens if you have multiple types of gameplay in a single game, which basically every game in the last 30-40 years has had, and how that creates a larger system of gameplay.
gameplay + gameplay isn't "experience", its still just gameplay.

>>745199190 (OP) #
its the same picture, you can safely ignore visuals and story and head straight to bed after taking a dump on the lack of content

>>745200927 #
>why you would see a movie based on a book instead of any other movie
>>745200723 #
>Because they're moving.
It sounds more like you're asking the same question until you get the answer you want.

>>745201295 #
Nope, if you want a game to simulate fantasy adventurer life you don't start with
>this will be entity A that the player controls and this will be entity B that the player will move towards and make actions against, these numbers will represent the fortitude, the buttons will activate these actions that will affect these numbers etc
You start with
>this will be the player character who is a knight and this will be the enemy dragon that the player will have to slay
Then you find ways to represent that in gameplay, the systemic framework itself doesn't convey shit without the context

>>745201295 #
What about cutscenes

>>745201385 #
All movies are moving, why pick the one based on the book you read instead of any other movie, fifth time you dodged the question

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Introducing

Inspired by the parkour vs menus meme. I think the two types of gameplay are "coming up with a plan" and "executing a plan"; so jumping/aiming/parkour is action while choosing targets and weapons, puzzles and menus in general are tactics.

I also wanted to point out that every game has a balance between focus on gameplay and focus on story (more generally "presentation"/"spectacle").

>>745201440 #
Civilization only has strategic gameplay, not tactical gameplay

>>745200659 #
This post brought to you by someone who has no idea >>>/tg/ exists.

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>>745201440 #
Congratulations, you're just as much of a brainlet as pic related

>>745200825 #
Hilariously one is all you need

>>745201513 #
Please keep it that way.

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>>745199190 (OP) #
fixed you're image

>>745200674 #
FUCK YOU TOO HUMAN WAS GOATED
AND YOU FAGGOTS LET (((EPIC))) DESTROY THEM

>>745199190 (OP) #
Games are a better experience when I skip the boring cutscenes that get in the way of playing the game.

>>745201407 #
>you start with
no, you don't
you don't start with the story
you don't start with setting details

you start with the gameplay
>you need to be able to fight enemies
>we need systems for players to engage with NPCs
>players need to be able to make gear, smithing, crafting, skinning, tanning, etc
>we can tie the crafting system with the enemies
>and we can tie crafting to a shop system to NPCs
>add in benefits for making certain types of gear
>NPCs can also give you tasks to kill enemies
>lets make these gameplay systems tie together
and THEN you figure out why the player should be doing these story wise, after you have the gameplay
AFTER you know its fun and worth playing
you can create whatever excuse you want for that
>what is the reason the player does this?
>well lets say they are a knight
>their training can serve as a tutorial
>then they need to do quests for nobles that involve killing enemies
>oh and they can make gear for other knights if they take up crafting
>and if they don't sell it to other nobles

gameplay comes first
every time
you always decide on the specific gameplay systems you want and retrofit the story, visuals, and setting to that
tell me you have never made a game without telling me

>>745201413 #
you mean the thing people hate and deride games that have too many for being movie games?
yeah, cutscenes have no gameplay, if I wanted to watch something I would watch a movie, cutscenes are non games sections and its why they are skipped so much and memed on.

>>745199190 (OP) #
Mostly the first one, gameplay is the point in every good video game. Other aspects can and do enhance the experience, but they're just that, enhancements to the core. If the gameplay doesn't hold up, I will not play the game.

>>745200021 #
Noita is so much better than Chrono Dogshit its not even funny.

>>745199190 (OP) #
I often skip the story in games or play them muted and I still have a great time if the gameplay is good. The sidedish analogy is correct.

>>745201476 #
For the purposes of this image, strategy and tactics both belong to the planning category, as opposed to action. Maybe the word "planning" would've been a better choice, but for most games the word "tactics" fits and makes the idea more clear, at least, I thought so

>>745201593 #
Based

>>745201614 #
>listening to a craftingfag for gameplay
lmao

>>745199190 (OP) #
If the gameplay isn't the point then I'd be better off just watching the cutscenes on youtube. Or better yet, just not playing the shit game at all.

>>745201614 #
>enemies
>NPCs
>smithing, crafting, skinning, tanning, etc
>shop
>etc
All primarily experience elements, not gameplay elements, without the experience these are contextless boxes and numbers

>>745201095 #
Gameplay is the car, experience is the road, interaction/driving happens when you apply A to B

>>745201762 #
>gameplay is only the buttons I press
Yeah, you're retarded

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>>745199781 #
VNs are games, so movie games are also games.

>>745201543 #
I am trying to describe games based on what the focus of the game is. In that slide, Tim Cain seems to be talking about how the build system should work in RPG games. It's completely irrelevant to what I'm talking about, but I guess you don't like triangles?

>>745201843 #
Name 35 gameplays that aren't triggered by buttons you press

>>745201843 #
Even your strawman reading of my post is wrong

The gameplay systems themselves are worthless without the context, the idea of an enemy or crafting, shops etc doesn't exist if you don't start with "the player will be a knight/mercenary/vampire in a kingdom/town/spaceship" etc

>>745199190 (OP) #
Games without depth are a waste of time. "Experience"-based games are always shallow and mindless.

>>745201614 #
>you need to be able to fight enemies
First, you have to decide that you have a setting with enemies.
>we need systems for players to engage with NPCs
Now you have to decide you have a setting with NPCs.
>players need to be able to make gear, smithing, crafting, skinning, tanning, etc
Now you have to decide you have a very specific setting where animals exist, hunting them is desirable, and making primitive gear is desirable.
You see? You kept making setting decision without even realizing it.

>>745201690 #
Playing games muted is soulless as fuck, or course you conform with a plain 'dish'. Bugman.

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>each dish can be enjoyed separately from each other
Regarding the first time you experience these things, I don't think anyone really thinks this. You literally experience these things at the same time.
Unless you mean like listening to soundtracks and art books after the fact..but then that's just objectively correct.

>>745199190 (OP) #
Gameplay is directly symbiotic with everything else except the story, though story can still provide a good contextual framework
A basic arcade game still needs effective visuals and sound to be fun, but without any further context or content there are entire realms of gameplay that simply can't function

>>745201997 #
I've never played Drakengard but I listen to the OST all the time.

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>>745199190 (OP) #
I prefer this model. Gameplay is what makes the game, a game.
But to make the game enjoyable and interesting, what matters is everything supporting the gameplay. If any one piece is too long and too thin, it snaps and the experience comes tumbling down. Like a UE5 game with incredibly demanding graphics that look like shit, or an obnoxious, badly written story that the game focuses on. You can cut pieces out of course, like removing the story entirely, and some people will enjoy the simplicity. As a whole, it likely won't be as interesting though.
Also, context is what makes the gameplay interesting, not the other way around. The gameplay can be interesting on its own, but it can never build its own context.

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>gameplay isn't the point
>it's just the only reason the other stuff even exists
>Also "the experience" doesn't count as gameplay

>>745201708 #
No worries anon I'm just funposting about the fact that people get anal about tactics games vs strategy games

>>745202052 #
Op says your claim is wrong!

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>>745199190 (OP) #
This game has no story, no context, bland visuals, and ear-graring music. It's still a great game that I sunk many hours into.

>>745201989 #
Some games just have shitty music but fun gameplay. Or music I've heard a thousand times. Usually I leave sound effects on for practical reasons.

>>745202052 #
NTA, had you and when you play it for the first time, as a whole product-you still wouldn’t digest the whole experience in “plates”, like that.
I listen to the Tony Hawk Underground soundtrack myself, but that’s literally all licensed tracks. It could’ve been any other songs from the same bands of the same eras, and still retain the feel. The game as a whole is still reliant on gameplay to be a serviceable vehicle for anything else. You can all that foundation of a house, but it’s more like the engine, motor and the needed guts of a car.
What comes out the radio can be anything, but a nice body (aesthetically) also go a long way.

>>745199190 (OP) #
Animation needs to be separated from visuals because that's the only important part of it. The rest can be shit for all it matters.

>>745199190 (OP) #
game play visuals and musics are the house

So what do the type of gamedev idea guys who make these sorts of images think is happening when I play Balatro on mute for 3 hours straight?(look, I like the song, but there's just the one)

>>745202281 #
I’d argue they go hand in hand, I think specific animations can be argued that way, like view model animations, or particle animations, but feedback is needed even in RPGs. I’d rather see a poison cloud/blood splatter to signify a debuff, than to have to pay attention to HP gauges.
Or for shooters, readability of a dead enemy like in Doom, or in 3D games where blood splatters are the tell are needed to visually communicate to the player to “move on”.

And to be a dick, you quite literally can’t have animations without visuals, animation in itself is a visual medium.

>>745202127 #
>Also "the experience" doesn't count as gameplay
Correct. Staring at a vista in the distance is not gameplay

>>745201439 #
>why pick the one based on the book you read instead of any other movie
>askign the same question again
I've answered honestly anon. Twice.
I dont know why you think askign the same question over and over will somehow change reality and get you a different answer, life doesnt work like that. Maybe it's because you're retarded.

>>745201543 #
this visualization is actually very smart and shows deep understanding of game design
rpg trannoids who want to watch movies don't like gameplay

>>745202445 #
That implies experience is mutually exclusive to minute moments and not the grand sum of a full playthrough down to the side-quests.
Obviously someone that plays a game and drops it in an hour has a less worthwhile experience than someone going for 100%. In this context however, it’s about a full playthrough.

>>745199190 (OP) #
Interacting with the mechanics is the experience. The context of that interaction doesn't matter since it could be easily replaced with any other context and the mechanics wouldn't change.

>>745202519 #
>dude le experience just means the entirety of playing a game
Cool, nice completely worthless term

>>745202250 #
Learn English nigga.

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>no story
>one looping bgm track
>visuals is literally blocks

And its perfect, zoomies could never understand

>>745199190 (OP) #
The "experience" of a game falls apart on a repeat playthrough when you start skipping cutscenes, sequence breaking, gaming the systems and mechanics, looking for bugs and exploits etc. Games are not met halfway, you don't pretend like certain aspects of the game don't break the "intended experience" just because the dev expects you to.

>>745199190 (OP) #
Just because you wasted time to make an info graphic doesn't make it correct

>>745199672 #
Chrono Trigger is gay turn-based dogshit and the single most overrated game ever made.

>>745202837 #
I didn't waste any time, AI made it for me

>>745202912 #
Agreed, seriously overrated even for turn cringe combat, any dragon quest is better

>>745199190 (OP) #
>gameplay isn't the point of the game

>>745201762 #
>"n-no!!!! its experience!!!!"
they are gameplay and you are retarded
thanks for letting everyone know you are retarded

>>745202694 #
What’s the issue now teacher?

>>745202609 #
Now you know what holistic means

>>745203103 #
Basically all of that was totally fucked, you'd have to pay me to fix that level of ESL.

>>745199190 (OP) #
>gameplay isn't the point
Then there's no point in playing it. The gameplay would just be a waste of time that gets in the way of the important parts.

>>745199190 (OP) #
>more accurate
Depends on the project but usually gameplay has to be good enough to be worth the effort, in order to fully experience all the stuff that follows as a reward for performing.

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a modest proposal

>>745203331 #
Very nice, needs that comic of the dad eating the bitches oranges or w/e too.

>>745203194 #
Fuck I knew I should’ve done MLA format…

>>745203101 #
Sorry you got blown the fuck out for not understanding the topic

>>745199190 (OP) #
Neither. All of these can be the focus and other things can be supporting or detrimental. Gameplay is not always the central point of a game and might be completely absent.
For example:
Point and clicks and visual novels usually have zero gameplay, yet people like them for the story and characters.
Yume Nikki has barely any gameplay, but people like it for the music and visuals alone.
TIS-100 has neither gameplay, visuals, music or anything like that, yet many people enjoyed it solely because of sense of immersion, novelty and fun puzzles.
Sometimes gameplay can be literally bad, but other things make up for it. For example Deltarune gameplay genuinely is unfun, but the story and mystery makes a lot of people really invested into it.
Sometimes gameplay might be super fun, but other things ruin it. For example Hardspace Shipbreaker has really good gameplay loop, but is ruined by unskippable communist propaganda cutscenes.

>>745201440 #
I like this chart. Reality is more nuanced but this is much more closer to truth.

>>745202458 #
>I've answered honestly anon. Twice.
Point me to the answer

>>745200568 #
>Do Americans really put every part of the meal on a separate plate?
That's an Asian custom, not American.

>>745202730 #
Zoomies have Balatro, they do understand.

>>745199190 (OP) #
taste in games is subjective

>>745202052 #
I hope you were talking about drakengard 1

>>745204104 #
I've done that too. scroll up, retard

>>745199190 (OP) #
left is correct

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>>745199285 #
>there is a second basement below the basement

>>745199190 (OP) #
>gameplay isnt the actual point
Snoyggers are a stereotype

>>745204325 #
I was, that OST is fantastic but I've heard the gameplay is jank as fuck.

>>745199190 (OP) #
gameplay is king
if I don't like the gameplay, there's no reason to stick around for anything else

>"gameplay is the only thing that matters sweety"
>*hides my collection of jrpgs behind my back sweating bullets*

>>745199190 (OP) #
The most memorable games are the ones that focus on gameplay.

>>745204442 #
I've reread the reply chain and only found you dodging the question five times in a row, sorry you're too afraid to admit you were wrong

Here is a simple counter to that argument. If gameplay is just the foundation and not the most important part. Why are the most popular games the ones that are gameplay first? Why are people willing to give games with passable gameplay a chance even if the rest is terrible while a game with bad gameplay wouldnt be given the same chance.

>>745199496 #
No, they are gacha gamers. The actual gameplay in those games are retarded simple.

>>745202591 #
You don't interact with the mechanics, you use mechanics to interact with the game experience, the mechanics are just tools, they're worthless without something to apply them on

>>745204886 #
>Why are the most popular games the ones that are gameplay first?
They aren't lol

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>>745199190 (OP) #
Society isn't ready for the truth yet.

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>>745204980 #
Very close, in the end it's context that decides if a game is even going to be played, like in the case of Concord

>>745204980 #
Based

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>>745204972 #
Why even post if your dumb lies can be proven false in 5 seconds

If gameplay doesn't matter how did videogames take off at all when games like pacman, Galaga, and joust had no story at all and music that sounded like ass through a kazoo?

>>745205131 #
>game with 1M players is "the most popular"
lmao

I think of a better thing to do then whatever is happening in this thread
Name games that have the least of the five (Gameplay, Visuals, Story, Context, Music)

>>745201614 #
>no THIS stone is the most important one in the arch!
That isn't how it works, everything reinforces everything else. You don't "start" with one thing in a meaningful way, because all elements get refined over time through iteration. Even if you start with "gameplay first", once you have a context in mind, that context changes the gameplay.

As an example case, consider Halo. Halo has both energy and ammunition weapons with meaningful gameplay differences; energy weapons use a heat/cool mechanic while ammunition weapons use a reload mechanic. These two designs have different impacts on gameplay balance and encourage different approaches to guns that are otherwise very similar in terms of their properties (rate of fire, accuracy, damage, etc).

The devs may have begun with "make a first person shooter" before they had any of the narrative context in place. But I guarantee you they didn't sit down and say
>we should have some weapons that use cooldowns and some weapons that use reloads
before having the context in place. It was the context of needing alien technology that made an opposing army feel fundamentally distinct that led to creating categories of weapon, and those categories were what lead to the unique gun mechanics.

>>745199190 (OP) #
what? who gives a shit about gameplay? only story matters

>>745199523 #
>movie
>walkie talkie
>no gamie
I, too, want a faggot-coded word for my thing

>>745205189 #
I shouldn't take the obbious bait but godman you are a total drooling retard, youe alcoholic slut mother drank heavily while pregnant

>>745205150 #
because OP is a retard who doesn't actually like videogames and needs to resort to strawmanning people who actually do like them

>>745205349 #
>posts bad faith argument
>gets mad when he gets a bad faith argument in response
Lol thirdie meltie

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>>745199190 (OP) #
Why does /v/ pretend gameplay is king when 75% of threads on /v/ are about characters or story

>>745199190 (OP) #
they're ALMOST correct.
gameplay IS the foundation, the problem is they then made the assumption that at some point you ignore it and fuck off to add a 15th story to the house and abandon your cracked and broken foundation because "its good enough".
as you add additional elements, their weight on the gameplay increases.
i dont mind spending 20 minutes walking from one mission to another, if the GAMEPLAY during that walking is fun.
look at journey, its almost nothing BUT walking, with no story, but nice visuals and sound.
but just walking in that game is fun, because the refined how you control, how you move and are rewarded for mastering the limited use of the jump.
compare it to dear esther, where you walk from location to location with nothing else going on, its shit.
then look at what happened to edith fitch, which was dear Esther, but with little interstitial gameplay sections, it was a WAY better game.
even if the story was meh, you would keep going to see what else was there.

shit dude, look at fucking warioware, or rhythm heaven, nothing BUT gameplay, and they kick ass.

the REAL problem, is that with steraming, most people dont actually FEEL the gameplay anymore.
they consume games through videos of other people playing it and saying its great.
so you only see the other shit, usually on a second monitor while doing something else.

like watching someone else eat a meal, and deciding the brocolli is their favorite part because it makes them make the most noises when they eat it, nevermind the noise is disgust at the taste, its noise.

>>745205424 #
>gameplay IS the foundation, the problem is they then made the assumption that at some point you ignore it and fuck off to add a 15th story to the house and abandon your cracked and broken foundation because "its good enough".
>as you add additional elements, their weight on the gameplay increases.
That's your bad faith assumption, the implication of the image is that the foundation needs to be as strong as the house above it demands

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>>745199190 (OP) #
>the actual point
>context
Sounds like pesudeointellectual tranny bullshit to me

>>745204884 #
>I've reread the reply chain and only found you not giving me the answer I wanted five times in a row,
>that means you're wrong, not me
I have to ask: did that tactic actually work in your liberal arts college?

>>745199190 (OP) #
The importance of story really depends on if the game actually wants you to care about one or not, IMO.

>>745205464 #
you didn't read that wall of text in 50 seconds.

but literally it says " the foundation needs to be solid, but after a certain point the effort should go into the actual point, the experience"

my assertation is that the people arguing about how gameplay isn't "the actual pointt" are the kind of people who abandon the game feel as soon as they get it good enough to move between cutscenes.

the kind of person who claims you cant enjoy the story, music or visuals separate from a game, ignoring that until recently, thats how EVERYONE consumed their media, through books, movies, music or art.

my 'assumption' is that the person posting this is doing so in response to accusations, much like anyone talking about how its actually hebiphilia should have their harddrive checked on pain of death.

smoke without fire and all that jazz.

>>745205679 #
If you were right you could just post the answer here right now and btfo me publicly, yet you've done nothing but evade doing it all thread, what other conclusion is there other than the fact that you don't have an answer

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>>745205131 #
>CS2 is "gameplay first"
It's a story about terrorists and counter-terrorists. That story informs huge amounts of the gameplay: the whole bomb disarm / point capture thing exists only because of the setting. Smokes only exist because of the setting. Bullet spread that's impacted by shooter movement only exists because of the setting. Bonus damage from headshots only exists because of the setting. Most of the things that make CS2 what it is exist as simulacra of actual tacticool military shit, not as pure gameplay-driven abstractions.

Pic related is also mechanically a "first person shooter"

"Story" or "context" or whatever you want to call it is more than just "protagonist goes on a hero's journey with a beginning, middle, and end". It's the labels we give to things in the game that give them meaning in relation to one another.

A game without a story is Tetris. Pure abstraction with entirely arbitrary rules that exist just for the sake of the game's balance. There isn't anything wrong with this, but it's insane to claim that this is the most popular category of game. Even among mobile games, where this type of abstract format arguably sees its biggest popularity, shit like Fortnite/PUBG or Clash Royale absolutely dominate over pure-abstraction games like Candy Crush.

>>745205397 #
What's bad faith about posting objective figures?

>>745205131 #
wallpaper engine is VERY gameplay first.

>>745205150 #
Nigga you're illiterate