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[–]FetchThePenguins 24 points25 points  (4 children)

It doesn't work. Nothing works, because the people you are trying to convince are a) not rational, and b) congenital liars.

[–]BaronOfTieveAustralian Jew[S] 1 point2 points  (3 children)

You’ve literally read none of my post then because I explicitly stated that this language is self defeating, pointless doomerism that simply demotivates Jews from making Aliyah. And you’re wrong quite frankly, as I used to support pro Palestinians. Change is always possible.

[–]FetchThePenguins -1 points0 points  (2 children)

I read your post. Using yourself as a counterexample is pointless unless you're also completely irrational and a congenital liar.

You simply don't understand the depths those who hate us will sink to. Probably because you used to support them yourself.

[–]BaronOfTieveAustralian Jew[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Really you read my post? Because I stated specifically that the only people worth opening a dialogue with are those that are moderate, since every day people who know little to nothing about history are actually receptive to logic. It’s sad that you feel a need to revert to insults to get your point across, but you’re not doing anyone any favours by actively demotivating other Jews from fighting for the right to exist.

[–]FetchThePenguins [score hidden]  (0 children)

I have re-read your post, twice. You stated nothing of the kind.

Your first line is wrong: normal people don't care about "western colonisers" or similar leftist nonsense. They care about being bombarded by stories and pictures of death and destruction. All your other mistakes stem from there.

[–]adeadheadJordan Valley Coalition Activist 5 points6 points  (2 children)

Palestinians are indigenous. Jews are indigenous. More than one group can be indigenous to an area. We know each group is indigenous with proof given by the other group-

Jews share more of their DNA with Palestinians than those Jews do with their neighbors in their diaspora host countries.

There is no educated position to take where you deny the indigeneity of one or the other group.

[–]BaronOfTieveAustralian Jew[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

The fact is the same present day Palestinians, did not exist as a defined group bound by a shared identity inhabiting the lands of Israel. That is a world apart from actually establishing a core identity in which is shared amongst thousands upon thousands of people who have lived and died to fight for the right to live. If you can’t see how that is distinct from having purely genetic ties to ancestors with whom they likely wouldn’t even eat at the same table with if they existed today, then I don’t know what to tell you.

[–]adeadheadJordan Valley Coalition Activist 0 points1 point  (0 children)

National titles and political borders are a social convention. I'm not saying the identity is one that's been preserved or shared.

I'm saying the people have been there for thousands of years and to suggest they're transplants is disingenuous.

They have pure genetic ties to their accessors who lived in the land.

[–]CheesecakeFabulous15 0 points1 point  (2 children)

There is no such thing as indigeneity. Every single group of people occupies land that another group occupied before them and so on. If you want to go all the way back, Homo sapiens evolved around east Africa so that’s the only place where anyone can claim to truly be native to

[–]adeadheadJordan Valley Coalition Activist 0 points1 point  (1 child)

This is such a losing argument, which makes me sad because of how true it is. Abraham came from Ur, in modern day Iraq.

[–]CheesecakeFabulous15 [score hidden]  (0 children)

Yup, I am not interested in pseudo mystical debates. I am interested in ensuring a safer reality in that region that will reduce as much friction as possible. A two state solution needs to happen eventually or else everyone will lose

[–]mr_blue596 [score hidden]  (0 children)

The premise is ambitious to say the least,but you miss the point entirely.

The idea of "Pro-Palestinian" and "Pro-Israeli" are.problamtic on their own because they enforce a zero-sum game. When you enforce a zero-sum game,you force people to choose who they think should take it all,and this is such a dumb position. Even if they all supported Israel it would also be a dumb position.

The situation is not a zero-sum game,and when someone have issues with Israeli policies or support the Palestinians having political rights,they are automatically ostracized from the Pro-Israeli camp.

The correct response to this tribalism is to change the question,not "Who do you support? Israelis or Palestinians?" It should be "What kind of resolution you support? 1 state,2 states, confederation, no resolution?" This allow people to support both Israelis and Palestinians without being forced into tribalist thinking. Imgine people saying they are Pro-Peace instead of Pro-Palestinian or Pro-Israeli.

The idea that the issue with the tribalism is that we are not winning there as we used to,is the core issue in Israeli foreign policy.

It's worth to mention that there will always a minority that can't be reasoned with (on both sides by the way),but by changing the teams,they will be removed or pushed aside from the mainstream conversation. They are a minority but make a lot of noise,and tribalism give them unproportional support.

[–]conscientious_seesaw [score hidden]  (0 children)

I agree, people think indigeneity means "people who lived somewhere for a while" or something related to DNA, in reality it's the relationship people have to the land from which their civilization, language, religion, etc arise. Where was Judean civilization born? Judea. Where was Arab civilization born? Arabia. 

Another way of looking at it: who is more indigenous, 1) the great great great grandchildren of entirely assimilated Cherokee, who call themselves Bob, practice Christianity, don't know a single thing about being Cherokee and are actually violently hostile to the idea that their ancestors were, in fact, Cherokee? Or 2) the great great great grandchildren of Cherokee who left their land but continued to practice their tribal rituals, kept the language, kept the culture, then returned home?

[–]ZG99 [score hidden]  (0 children)

Hard disagree. I actually believe it’s the weakest point Jews/zionists have. It sucks us into a nitty gritty argument that is underpinned with the assumption that if Jews were in fact not the first ones in Israel, then they don’t have a right to a country there. What other country has to prove it was there first to justify its existence??? Does the USA, Canada, Japan, etc get into these kinds of debates? Obviously not, but they are obvious countries whose right to existence is obvious. You know what can’t be debated and is the best argument to justify a country? Winning wars. Pretty much every country that exists today won a war or killed enough people at some point for others to back the fuck off. You can say the same thing about Israel. It’s ugly, but it’s the truth.

[–]masteroffdesaster [score hidden]  (0 children)

I mean, both can be true. for some reason, regardless of facts or correct arguments that are being made, a couple of millenia ago people started hating Jews and it has only gotten worse ever since. yes, they are objectively incorrect in their hatred, but since when has that ever stopped anyone hating people for being "different"?