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[–]frackingfaxer[S] 47 points48 points  (2 children)

Daniel Saba George, a member of the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, was killed by IDF soldiers on April 23, 2006 in Bethlehem. He was notable as one of the few post-Second Intifada Palestinian Christian terrorists/freedom fighters.

His religious affiliation is front and centre here. It features the Church of the Nativity, the traditional birthplace of Jesus, and according to Google Lens, the text is explicitly Christian%20%D9%88%D9%83%D8%AA%D8%A7%D8%A6%D8%A8%20%D8%B4%D9%87%D8%AF%D8%A7%D8%A1%20%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A3%D9%82%D8%B5%D9%89%20%D9%85%D9%86%20%D9%85%D8%AD%D8%A7%D9%81%D8%B8%D8%A9%20%D8%A8%D9%8A%D8%AA%20%D9%84%D8%AD%D9%85%20%D8%A5%D8%A8%D9%86%D9%87%D8%A7%20%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B4%D9%87%D9%8A%D8%AF%20%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A8%D8%B7%D9%84...%20%D8%AF%D8%A7%D9%86%D9%8A%D8%A7%D9%84%20%D8%B3%D8%A7%D8%A8%D8%A7%20%D8%AC%D9%88%D8%B1%D8%AC%20%D8%A3%D8%A8%D9%88%20%D8%AD%D9%85%D8%A7%D9%85%D8%A9%20%D8%A3%D8%A8%D9%88%20%D9%81%D9%84%D8%B3%D8%B7%D9%8A%D9%86%22%20%D9%85%20%D8%A5%D9%86%D8%AC%20%D9%84%D9%87%20%D8%A8%D8%B1%D8%A7%D9%86%20%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B3%D9%8A%D8%B1%20%D8%B1%D8%B3%D9%85%D9%8A%20%D8%B9%D9%84%D9%89%20%D9%81%D9%8A%20%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B3%D9%86%D9%8A%D9%86%20%D9%83%D9%84%20%D9%8A%D9%88%D9%85%20%D8%A8%D8%B3%D8%A8%D9%89%20%D8%BA%D9%8A%D8%A7%D8%A8%20%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AD%D9%82%20%D9%88%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%84%D9%87&op=translate) and religious as well. It presents George as a modern Saint George, another Christian martyr killed in Palestine.

[–][deleted]  (1 child)

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    [–]hummuslapper 38 points39 points  (8 children)

    Since the 2000s, this has become very rare. Palestinian Christians played a larger role from the 1950s through the 1980s, when the main Palestinian militant groups were secular or Marxist. However, since the 1990s, Islamist organizations such as Hamas and Islamic Jihad have become the primary belligerents, and the share of Palestinian Christians in militant organizations has effectively declined to near zero.

    [–]JetAbyss 18 points19 points  (0 children)

    I think it's similar to Lebanon. Pretty much all the Arab Christians have started to immigrate out of the Middle East for safety reasons

    [–][deleted]  (1 child)

    [removed]

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      [–]Critter-Enthusiast -6 points-5 points  (2 children)

      Remember kids:

      American/Israeli holding gun = war hero

      Muslim/Arab/Brown person holding gun = terrorist

      /s

      [–][deleted]  (1 child)

      [removed]

        [–]PropagandaPosters-ModTeam[M] -1 points0 points locked comment (0 children)

        This comment has been removed for violating the subreddit rules around polarized rhetoric and partisan bickering: proselytizing, single-issue advocacy, blanket negative generalizations, and divisive language are not appropriate here.

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        [–]Mister-Psychology -28 points-27 points  (46 children)

        That's like the photo you always find when a "innocent teen shot by police" story appears in US media. Not really the innocent bystander look one should go for.

        [–]Bluestreaked 25 points26 points  (37 children)

        Well I would immediately point out that’s not the point of the poster at all so what are you even trying to suggest?

        The poster isn’t hiding that he was a member of the Resistance, or claiming he was an unarmed boy. It’s glorifying that he did choose to take up arms and join the Resistance, at the cost of his life, hence “martyr” (meaning he was killed by Israel).

        It’s interesting because westerners often don’t know that Palestinian Christians are often just as militantly anti-Zionist (when not more so) than Palestinian Muslims. One of the most famous Palestinian resistance leaders was himself a Palestinian Christian (also named George, the patron saint of Palestine)

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George\_Habash

        [–]frackingfaxer[S] 5 points6 points  (2 children)

        In the old religion vs. atheism debates on the Internet, we used to argue there were no Palestinian Christian terrorists. Because Islam was uniquely violent and the Palestinian-Israeli conflict was a Muslim-Jewish religious war.

        This was of course nonsense. It's not like Habash and the PFLP were turning the other cheek to the Israelis. In fact, before the rise of Islamism and Hamas, Christians might have been overrepresented in Palestinian resistance.

        [–]Bluestreaked 4 points5 points  (1 child)

        I’m old enough to remember those days too. Ironically I was one of the Christian nutcases back in the day, I’m much calmer with that now, ranting and screeching in defense of one’s faith is a sign of weak faith (which isn’t relevant to the conversation, just reminiscing).

        The existence of men like George Habash and this George is one of those threads that once you find it and start to pull on it all of the propaganda people get told about this conflict starts to unravel

        [–]frackingfaxer[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

        Right, the propaganda that the Palestinians stubbornly fight on because of religious fanaticism and irrational Jew hatred. As if any other group in the world would take dispossession and occupation lying down.

        In theory, one could argue that the Palestinian Christians are motivated by Christian antisemitism. But of course that would undermine the whole Judeo-Christianity vs. Islam narrative.

        [–]Merch_Lis 12 points13 points  (18 children)

        Yeah, people are forgetting that the whole thing is a product of Arab nationalism preceding the resurgence of Islamism in the region once the nationalist project failed.

        [–]Bluestreaked 7 points8 points  (17 children)

        Yes, I would take this point and run with it a bit further just because I enjoy having an opportunity to talk about the history of Palestinian resistance without people screaming at me that I’m a terror supporter or Iranian bot haha.

        Palestinian national resistance kind of progressed through different stages that you alluded to there

        1- the Arab nationalist stage where the goal was a unified Arab state (the Nasser era) which ends with the defeat of the Arab world in 1967

        2- the Palestinian nationalist stage where the dominant figure becomes Yasser Arafat and focus shifts from Nasserist Arab states to the PLO. This is the famous high point of internationalist resistance movements (the 1970s) and you would have all of these groups from all over the world traveling to and training with the PLO. (Lots of “fun” stories I can reference from this period, it sometimes feels larger than life reading about it).

        3- the rise of Political Islamism following the First Intifada culminating in the victory of Hamas over Fatah in the 2006 election, sitting the stage for the era I have the most lived experience in (and the era I became an anti-Zionist after first being raised a Zionist).

        I am not a supporter of “Political Islam” since I’m a secular leftist and want politics and religion to be two distinct spheres in life. But I must admit that studying the history and logic of Hamas has probably been among the most fascinating and compelling historical studies of my brief career so far (I am only in my 30s after all haha)

        Edit- the pleasant conversation about history was fun while it lasted I guess :(

        [–]thewooba -5 points-4 points  (16 children)

        How do you explain being leftist and anti zionist, pro terrorist? Zionist is like the poster child for anti racist land reclamation anti colonial projects.

        [–]Bluestreaked 4 points5 points  (15 children)

        Not in the slightest, in fact Israel very proudly called itself a settler-colonial project until the 1990s. After the fall of their close ally (Apartheid South Africa) they had to change their rhetoric to maintain western support, so started pretending to be an indigenous “land back” movement instead.

        Leftists have always been anti-Zionist post-48

        Edit- lol, the brigade downvotes

        Edit 2- anyone who thought this guy sounded rational or reasonable, please read to the end where this guy starts ranting about how much he hates Muslims

        [–]thewooba -1 points0 points  (14 children)

        Im not so sure about that. Jews are indigenous to the land, as evidenced by archeological (arch of titus) and genetic evidence. Furthermore, Israel is the secular and socialist state you are searching for. Palestine is the one that has banned gays and enforced sharia. Israel has a large proportion of atheists, allows gays and has socialist kibbutzim. It is also the only nation in the world that was voted into existence by a majority of UN voting states.

        Just because Palestine didnt like it, and started many wars, you now think it is a bad thing. I urge you to reconsider

        [–]mickeyisstupid 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        Zionist terrorists murdered and tortured Palestinian civilians to scare them off of the land they had been living on for generations, this was called the Nakba. it has been very well documented and Israel would not exist without Nakba and the still ongoing process of ethnically cleansing Palestine. don't try this bs, people don't fall for your lies anymore

        [–]Bluestreaked -4 points-3 points  (12 children)

        Israel is neither secular nor socialist. They are an explicitly Jewish state- https://www.timesofisrael.com/knesset-votes-contentious-jewish-nation-state-bill-into-law/amp/

        Frankly Labour Zionism was always more national socialist than socialist (the Nazi reference is intentional). They would obsess over shit like making sure only Jewish workers get hired- never Christians or Muslims.

        Also the archaeological record you think supports Israel actually supports the Palestinian claim. I will link to a few books on the topic by both Palestinians and Israelis for you

        https://www.versobooks.com/products/2103-the-invention-of-the-jewish-people?srsltid=AfmBOoo4VeVCZrGfr5H4GEuT7x6x3gxILVD5u3IgZVhR57BmEAND4s5f

        https://www.versobooks.com/products/2277-the-invention-of-the-land-of-israel?srsltid=AfmBOorczI5W7xIGRtrt-I6ax8blvy7f1HqBa3UrwZ04nsKiTLgyWoDY&_su_rec=EzrFyT8omPcJvQavtRKBmciuwxidG0Nc9a9XmFA9gznT6aVAS-Ayk-lw0h4W5-NUBl6ckxk4yDNOQemOc9op7YqzyJ194PsvjOeoNIvElTFZnxQBKuoSBS5SEp5V0MUVQfZVbeCCa7tq7EOEOFjSyczHe5z-taviUHgcO8aF5NCBt_IfefFpjqe0vjTZoAcTmXxOfm0RP5DJSK8wJi_5QVTEBO_j1wAhxovNHJR9OpCo4TplXjCYV5-g62p-V7NpHvCKg0NZgXTYNLaqZ274MZk9TFT0Ft0&_su_rec_id=6720b11e-9a46-43f6-bc29-daad5b4888da-1785602167

        https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Invention_of_Ancient_Israel.html?id=r8weAgAAQBAJ&source=kp_author_description

        https://www.shoppalestine.org/products/palestine-a-four-thousand-year-history-1?srsltid=AfmBOopcYsqLM3XBG5GjdAU4uapHRKNLOocrx8Td5hoTiJkwj64c-9DF

        https://bookshop.org/p/books/ten-myths-about-israel-ilan-pappe/9b547ff195af2e01?ean=9781804297049&next=t&&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=dsa_nonbrand&utm_content=%7Badgroupname%7D&utm_term=dsa-19959388920&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=12440232635&gbraid=0AAAAACfld41fWtxuXMNVfT1ZpmE5xlsNw&gclid=CjwKCAjwsrbTBhAvEiwA0Bpp4SYoba_eMdHTnVxTTuTpOM-NOGCTTLb5epKDfTvfg-9Ywh_5MWQmvBoCzPwQAvD_BwE

        [–]thewooba -2 points-1 points  (11 children)

        Ah i see, so Titus brought home a menorah because the Palestinians were Jewish? Or was the menorah part of a different religion back then?

        [–]Bluestreaked 4 points5 points  (10 children)

        Yes the Palestinians were Jewish. They can also be Muslim, Christian, Druze, Samaritan…. (Prior to the formation of Israel there was a lot more religious diversity that the Israelis have been intentionally trying to stamp out).

        Yes that is exactly what I’m saying. I know for a fact you didn’t glance at a single one of those books. Like I said, I made sure to use both Israeli and Palestinian scholars, frankly I can reference more if needed

        [–][deleted]  (14 children)

        [deleted]

          [–]Bluestreaked 5 points6 points  (13 children)

          Here’s the fun part of national resistance movements. You not liking them and referencing terrorist attacks they committed doesn’t make them not a resistance movement. It just means they’re a resistance movement that has engaged in terrorist attacks. Want to look up the history of resistance movements for your self and see how many of them committed acts of terror? Here’s a hint, it’s all of them.

          “Resistance” in this context is a neutral term. It’s what they are and what they are doing. If I called them “heroes” then that is a positive term, if I called them “terrorists” then that is clearly a negative term.

          I don’t think you will find a single Palestinian who denies that the PFLP is a part of the Resistance (notice the capital r there? You realize that means I’m using it as a proper noun to refer to the collective Palestinian National Resistance movement right?)

          Edit- also I had completely forgotten that they were the ones who got Zevi. If you’re trying to make the PFLP look like the bad guys you probably shouldn’t be referencing him

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rehavam\_Ze%27evi

          [–]Afraid_Dance6774 -1 points0 points  (9 children)

          by this logic, any fascist uprisings can be referred to as a "resistance movement". I get that it's a matter of perspective, but it seems to pretty much relegate the term to the point of uselessness.

          [–]Bluestreaked 1 point2 points  (8 children)

          No it wouldn’t? To be fair, fascist are nationalists and will explain themselves as “nationalist resistance” in certain contexts- Azov in Ukraine is an apt example.

          Like I said, “resistance,” is value natural. It just means that they’re a nationalist movement fighting against what they view as foreign occupiers. Nationalist resistance movements extend across the political spectrum, I didn’t really give a controversial or debated definition, it is intentionally a very broad term.

          I’m very anti-nationalist politically and ideologically but that gives me a strong fascination with nationalist movements of all stripes.

          [–]Afraid_Dance6774 1 point2 points  (7 children)

          Maybe you see it that way, but most people would tend to avoid calling fascist groups "resistance movements", and would argue against you using that term, though I don't necessarily disagree with you saying it should be a neutral term. But I'm not sure referring to fascist uprisings as resistance movements would be uncontroversial, especially in leftist spaces.

          [–]Bluestreaked 4 points5 points  (6 children)

          I would ask you to reference explicitly what groups you’re thinking of

          If we want to talk about how national resistance is understood specifically in leftist spaces we have to then discuss the leftist definitions of nationalism.

          [–]Afraid_Dance6774 3 points4 points  (5 children)

          Do you mean what fascist groups, or what leftist groups? For the former, really any fascist groups that took action against their state or government. Ustaše was a fascist group referred to themselves as the Croatian Revolutionary Movement, that took terroristic actions against Yugoslavia, for example.

          For the latter, communists, socialists, anarchists.

          I don't dispute that these people would have a poor view on fascist uprisings and would likely call them terrorists, but I wager that if you talked to many of them and used the term resistance movement they would call you out on it, stating that fascists can never be one, as they don't have legitimacy to be called as such. I'm sure they would have a long list of points for why they can't be considered such.

          [–]Bluestreaked 2 points3 points  (4 children)

          You’re not exactly wrong, you’re addressing an issue that does exist in regards to nationalism. Since you’ve given an example I can work with it.

          So, speaking as someone who despises the Ustaše as much as I imagine you do, they were unquestionably a nationalist movement. I would not call them “national resistance” because they were assisting the occupying regime. They were a collaborator group working with the occupier.

          I would contrast this with a group like the Chetniks, who I do consider to be both fascist adjacent and a national resistance group. Because, like Tito’s communists, they were fighting against an occupier.

          But, you’re right that this is a distinction that does exist and must be understood, we just disagree over how precisely to manage that contradiction.

          Out of curiosity, which leftist theories on nationalism would you consider yourself familiar with? I.e. Stalin, Mao, other less loaded and problematic theorists? Haha (I say as someone who follows the 70% good 30% bad formula with both men)

          Edit- also, to add, notice how the Ustaše viewed themselves as national “revolutionaries” rather than a “nationalist resistance” that distinction is the one I’m pointing to.

          [–][deleted]  (2 children)

          [deleted]

            [–][deleted]  (1 child)

            [removed]

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              [–]enkice 2 points3 points  (7 children)

              You have to rethink your values if you think resistance fighters are terrorists

              [–]Jinshu_Daishi 3 points4 points  (0 children)

              Plenty of resistance fighters are terrorists, terrorism is a tactic.

              [–]Shadow_WolfOps -4 points-3 points  (4 children)

              Ah yes resistance movement Ill cheer them on as they blow up children on the way to school or just shoot parents and kids then strangle a baby.

              [–]Bluestreaked 7 points8 points  (3 children)

              Do you often fantasize about events that didn’t happen? Nobody is strangling babies weirdo

              [–]potzko2552 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

              you are completely delusional. learn about the conflict before commenting on it.

              [–]TearOpenTheVault -1 points0 points  (0 children)

              ‘Graphic design is my passion’ looking ass poster.