×
all 22 comments

[–]DavidRFZ 10 points11 points  (12 children)

Wiktionary is easy and convenient to use, but it isn’t a primary source. I thought they usually cited references. I just checked and for most easy etymologies, they often don’t. They should, though!

Poke around the PIE categories for other roots and see what they are citing.

Here is a random one that cites five etymology dictionaries.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/ǵʰers-

Pokorny, Rix, DeVaan, Cheung, Martirosyan… you can probably find more in other articles.

Good luck! It would be fun to see this cleaned up and some of the red links filled in.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (10 children)

Wiktionary is easy and convenient to use, but it isn’t a primary source.

Yes, I'm aware - precisely why it's only a starting point for me.

Pokorny, Rix, DeVaan, Cheung, Martirosyan… you can probably find more in other articles.

Thank you for this! I'll see what I can find.

Good luck! It would be fun to see this cleaned up and some of the red links filled in.

Agreed! Here's a sneak peek into what I'm working on:

Common etymological origin of the Gods Hermes & Terminus. And the etymology of Mercury.

I can't quite understand why the romans associated Hermes with Mercury rather than Terminus, when it is very clear that Terminus evolved from the same origin as Hermes.

[–]hexagonalwagonal 1 point2 points  (9 children)

Here's what the Oxford English Dictionary has to say about each:

Terminus:

Etymology: < classical Latin terminus boundary, limit, end, (with capital initial) the god who presided over boundaries and landmarks, in post-classical Latin also fixed date or point in time (frequently from 8th cent. in British sources), mathematical expression (see term n.) < the same Italic base as Oscan teremenniú (plural) boundary stones, teremnattens they have delimited, Umbrian termnas delimited, termnom (accusative singular) boundary stone < an extended form of the Indo-European base of ancient Greek τέρμα end, boundary.

Hermes:

Etymology: < Latin Hermēs, Greek Ἑρμῆς.

With the first listed definition being:

In Greek mythology, a deity, the son of Zeus and Maia, represented as the messenger of the gods, the god of science, commerce, eloquence, and many of the arts of life; commonly figured as a youth, with the caduceus or rod, petasus or brimmed hat, and talaria or winged shoes. Identified by the Romans with Mercury.

So "Hermes" is just a modern Anglicization of the same word in ancient Greek, with the same meaning, i.e., the name of the Greek god.

Now the tricky one. Mercury:

Etymology: < classical Latin Mercurius the god Mercury, cognate with merc- , merx commodity (see market n.): the suffix -urius is perhaps of Etruscan origin. In sense 3d probably after Middle French mercure (c1550 in this sense, 15th cent. in sense 7a).

The Roman deity was probably originally the god of commerce only, but is in classical Latin literature completely identified with the Greek Hermes. In early times in England, Mercury seems to have been identified with the Germanic Woden: compare quot. OE at Maia n., and discussion s.v. Wednesday n. and adv. The transferred application to the planet is found in classical Latin; like the other planetary names (the Sun, Moon, Mars, Jupiter, Venus, and Saturn corresponding to gold, silver, iron, tin, copper, and lead respectively), Mercurius in post-classical Latin came to be used to denote a specific metal (from 12th cent. in British sources). This use probably arose from analogy between the fluidity of the metal at room temperature and the rapid motion held to be characteristic of the classical deity.

A little bit more info is found at the entry for "market". The OED says that the "immediate origin" of the word "market" is "uncertain" because many different languages had adopted some form of the word into their language before English did, but that all these words ultimately come from Latin. So English could have borrowed it from some other language, or else directly from Latin. Either way, from Latin, the etymology is:

< classical Latin mercātus market, fair < mercārī to buy, to trade ( < merc- , merx commodity (compare Oscan amiricum , amiricatud ; origin uncertain)) + -tus , suffix forming verbal nouns.

So, here, the OED says that Mercury ultimately derives from the word merx or merc-, meaning "commodity", which didn't only show up in Latin, but appeared in another early Italic language, Oscan. Which means the word probably has a common ancestor to both, but that origin, says the OED, is "uncertain".

Turning, then, to Michiel de Vaan's 2008 Etymological Dictionary of Latin and the other Italic Languages, he gives the following explanation for the origins of the Latin word merx/merc-.

All derive[] from a stem *merk- also found in Faliscan and Oscan. The god Mercurius was probably the god of exchange. According to WH, the god's name was borrowed from Etruscan; in principle, the same is possible for the stem *merk- altogether.

The "WH" referred to is the 1934-58 edition of the German-language etymology book Lateinisches etymologisches Wörterbuch by Walde and Hoffmann. That book went through several editions - Walde actually died in the 1920s before Hoffmann took the project over. You can find early public domain versions of the book, which have a thorough entry for merx, but it doesn't appear to mention the Etruscans (though I can't read German). It may have been something Hoffman added later.

In summary:

Terminus comes from a Greek word meaning "boundary". The word was borrowed into Latin, and from there, adopted to the god of boundaries and landmarks.

Hermes comes from the Greek word meaning the same thing as it does now - the name of the Greek god of commerce. The ancient Greek was Latinized into classical Latin, and then Anglicized into modern English.

Mercury comes from an unknown origin, possibly Etruscan, or possibly some sort of Italic or proto-Italic language predating Latin and Oscan. The original word meant something like "commodity", and had possibly already been adapted to the name of the god of commerce in Etruscan, when these variations of the word were borrowed into Latin. Unlike the other two words, there's no indication the word originally derives from Greek.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (8 children)

I appreciate the effort... Though I'm not searching for how these words got into the English.

I'm looking for their most ancient origins.

E.g. Terminus being from PIE: Termn meaning boundary stone.

Hermes is also the same, through the etymology Ancient Greek: Herma - https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%95%CF%81%CE%BC%CE%B1#Ancient_Greek

So my question is why isn't Terminus associated with Hermes?

How far back into PIE history did these two God's split from each other?

And subsequently why did Romans associate Hermes with Mercury rather than Terminus? It must have meant that Mercury was already a pre-existing God alongside Terminus when Roman syncretism with Greek culture begun.

Now, the etymology of Mercurius from Merx I believe to be faulty because it fails to show the evolution of Merx / Merk from PIE. It could be a substrate, but I find it unlikely given how important this God was.

Given the etymology of Hermes/Terminus I think a more accurate root for Mercurius is:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/margo#Latin

As a cognate with Margin & Mark (as in border mark), it fits more closely with the root etymology of Hermes.

Termn is the border stone/pillar, Mark is the border itself.

I believe that Merx follows from Mark and it isn't a substrate, but a doublet of Mark. It is very possible that Merx got it's Ancient Latin meaning by association with Mercury (if Mercury is an ancient term). Therefore Margo > Mercury > Merx. But without evidence the latter statement is speculation. But I'm 99% certain that Mark & Merx are doublets.

I'm slowly writing a more detailed post where I explore the above in further detail.

I just was looking to see if there are other sources of research to get a second opinion before I write anything down, rather than relying on Wiktionary alone.

[–]hexagonalwagonal 2 points3 points  (7 children)

Though I'm not searching for how these words got into the English.

I'm looking for their most ancient origins.

Duuuude! That's why I linked to two different Latin etymology dictionaries, to show you where Latin got it from, haha! Sorry I didn't do it for all three gods, but the rest of this answer should fill in some of the blanks.

So my question is why isn't Terminus associated with Hermes? How far back into PIE history did these two God's split from each other?

Hermes probably didn't split from Terminus. Hermes probably split from Pan. The name Pan is thought to be derived from the PIE god *Péh₂usōn, who is theorized to have filled a lot of the Hermes role. Later on, the Greeks introduced Hermes as Pan's father, who retained some of the original attributes, while Pan evolved into a more mischievous character.

Remember that the gods evolved over the centuries and from culture to culture as much as the words themselves did. It would be an error to think that any of these gods remained too static. Just within ancient Greek, we have conflicting stories about whether Hermes is the son of Pan or the son of Apollo. The stories of these gods were never canonized the way later religions were. There have been efforts to reconstruct the PIE gods, and none of the gods Hermes, Terminus, or Mercury is proposed to go back that far, though some other Greek and Roman gods are (e.g., Pan, as just explained).

And subsequently why did Romans associate Hermes with Mercury rather than Terminus? It must have meant that Mercury was already a pre-existing God alongside Terminus when Roman syncretism with Greek culture begun.

There isn't any evidence Terminus existed as a god in Greek or PIE culture before the Romans invented him as a god, is there? I really don't know, but my Googling turns up nothing. The Oxford Classical Dictionary seems to imply that he did not exist as a god until the Romans created him as one.

Now, the etymology of Mercurius from Merx I believe to be faulty because it fails to show the evolution of Merx / Merk from PIE. It could be a substrate, but I find it unlikely given how important this God was.

Given the etymology of Hermes/Terminus I think a more accurate root for Mercurius is:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/margo#Latin

You aren't the first one to have this thought.

In fact, this theory is 150 years old, at least.

However, recent scholarship on the subject does not appear to support this theory:

  1. In the 1938-54 edition of Walde-Hoffmann's Lateinisches etymologisches Wörterbuch, the authors propose a possible connection to Etruscan. This appears to be the prevailing wisdom. (Sorry, can't find a link, but here is an earlier version of the same book, in German.)

  2. In John T. Shipley's 1984 dictionary The Origins of English Words: A Discursive Dictionary of Indo-European Roots, the author proposes the possibility that two different words came down to Latin - merk (mark/boundary) from PIE, and merc (exchange, barter) from the non-IE language spoken by the Etruscans. He was no doubt influenced by Walde-Hoffmann's work.

  3. The 2004 edition of the Routledge Dictionary of Gods and Goddesses, Devils and Demons notes that Mercury was known as the Roman god of profit/money for some time before he was equated with the Greek god Hermes and started to take on his characterisitcs. They add that "an Etruscan origin is possible" for the god.

  4. In Michiel de Vaan's 2008 Etymological Dictionary of Latin and the other Italic Languages, the author cites and supports the Etruscan theory, crediting Walde-Hoffmann for originating it.

On the contrary, in the 3rd edition of the Oxford Classical Dictionary from 1996, the editors back off the Etruscan claim, simply noting the Etruscans had an equivalent god to Mercury. Regardless, this is yet another source that declines to connect Mercury to margo/merk/mark/border/boundary.

Why do these academics take this attitude? I don't really know, but I do trust that they've heard your theory before, since it's been around a long time by now. And for some reason that remains unclear, they have decided to reject it. Maybe there is more info on why in that Walde-Hoffmann edition I was unable to track down.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (5 children)

I am so sorry it took me so long to reply!

I was waiting to complete the research and post on this matter, so that I didn't have to post the same thing twice. - Also there were elements I had yet to discover prior to concluding the aforementioned post.

https://www.reddit.com/r/etymology/comments/xd6z5m/hermes_terminus_mercury_a_proposal/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

Hermes probably didn't split from Terminus. Hermes probably split from Pan

While I can't deny the similarities between Hermes and Pan, the etymology of their name doesn't line up. Thus making this suggested origin hard to accept, given the lack of evidence.

Additionally difficult is demonstrating a cultural reflex of turning the PIE root "Peh" - From where Pan derives - into a divine entity (animistic or anthropomorphic). Only 2 exist, Pushan in Sanskrit and Pan in Greek.

Later on, the Greeks introduced Hermes as Pan's father,

Most likely Pan was a non-hellenic God from a separate Indo-European tribe that migrated with the proto-Greeks to Greece. When the Greeks were homogenizing & assimilating subordinate tribes, Pan was folded into the Greek pantheon within the "Hermes" type Gods. - This appears to agree with Herodotus' accounts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_(god)#Parentage#Parentage)

It would be an error to think that any of these gods remained too static.

Yes and no... some cultural reflexes remained very static indeed, e.g. Sky Father + God of Thunder and Storm. (Thor, Taranis, Zeus, Indra, Perkunas etc...)

No doubt Gods evolved, but reflexes demonstrate certain aspects of God remained fairly static. I have theories as to why that would be the case, however that would take to long to cover in a comment.

Just within ancient Greek, we have conflicting stories about whether Hermes is the son of Pan or the son of Apollo.

Greeks were fairly smart people. Take Plato's account of the myth of Phaeton:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phaethon#Plato's_Timaeus

Not all Greeks may have believed in the literal existence of the Gods. - So they referred to the "religion/cult" of a God as the God themselves.

It wouldn't be too big of a jump to assume they were attempting to identify the origin of the worship of Hermes, whether it is of Non-Greek origin (hence from Pan) or of Greek origin (hence from Apollo).

none of the gods Hermes, Terminus, or Mercury is proposed to go back that far

Hence my research.

How do we expect to find cognates across multiple PIE cultures if the etymology itself is so poorly attested?

Find the etymology and the PIE Hermes will emerge.

As per my research, and aforementioned comments of Pan/Pushan, it may be possible that there were two competing PIE cults of very similar nature - Pushan and Hermes/Mithra.

Whether the similarities are explained through both coming from a common source, or due to converged evolution I do not know (yet - if it is possible to find out at all).

There isn't any evidence Terminus existed as a god in Greek or PIE culture before the Romans invented him as a god, is there? I really don't know, but my Googling turns up nothing. The Oxford Classical Dictionary seems to imply that he did not exist as a god until the Romans created him as one.

Oh, he certainly was a pre Roman God, it's in both the Wikipedia page and in the very same Oxford Classical Dictionary you just shared:

"Traditionally the Terminus on the Capitol had been there before the temple of Jupiter".
Wikipedia explains that he was a pre-roman God that was assimilated into Jupiter.

You aren't the first one to have this thought.
In fact, this theory is 150 years old, at least.

THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH FOR THIS!!

I do not know why this is completely absent from Wiktionary... I would have thought that it was a pretty decent etymology.

And for some reason that remains unclear, they have decided to reject it

This right here... I do not understand AT ALL why I can't find a research paper explaining this. Without an explanation it feels like it is laziness. Almost like "God of the Gaps" but for etymology.

I can't explain the etymology of this word, therefore "Substrate".

But even then, there's no evidence that Merx came from Etruscan, it is only speculated to do so. - No word we have ever found in Etruscan provides evidence for this, Nor is there an Etruscan God called anywhere near the word "Mercurio".

The Etruscan God equivalent to Mercury and Hermes is: Turms.

Which strengthens my theory of a connection between Terminus and Hermes even more strongly.

Anyway, I hope my research goes some way in justifying my thoughts.

Enjoy the read, looking forward to your thoughts.

[–]hexagonalwagonal 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Sorry for the multiple replies, but I just re-read my long post and it comes off a bit hostile. I just want you to know, I'm not being critical just to be an asshole. I'm trying to be constructive, and realistic, that if you were to, say, try to submit an academic paper on this subject, then you still have a lot of work to do. I don't see how you've offered anything that likely hasn't already been considered by scholars on the subject. If you are serious about this topic, then be prepared for academic pushback that you might not know how to respond to.

If all you're trying to do is update the Wiktionary entry with your own pet theory, then go right ahead. Though I think that would be premature, since it appears that the actual scholarship of recent years (Shipley, de Vaan, Walde-Hoffmann, etc.) all appear to reject it. The two sources that I cited earlier that even mentioned your claim are not academically rigorous. One is an offhand comment in a book about other things, and the other is 150 years old and cites no sources.

[–]hexagonalwagonal 0 points1 point  (2 children)

While I can't deny the similarities between Hermes and Pan, the etymology of their name doesn't line up. Thus making this suggested origin hard to accept, given the lack of evidence.

This is a misunderstanding what the claim is. There is no claim that the words Pan and Hermes share an etymological root. The claim is that Hermes was some other god, derived from some other source, who was then given a backstory of being Pan's father, after which he took on some of the son's attributes. The ultimate source of the word "Hermes" and his origin as a deity is unknown - some scholarship say the Greeks invented him, some say no, but all sources seem to agree that his root is not in PIE. There were many other non-PIE cultures around at that time with gods of their own, and these would get borrowed cross-culturally.

Yes and no... some cultural reflexes remained very static indeed, e.g. Sky Father + God of Thunder and Storm. (Thor, Taranis, Zeus, Indra, Perkunas etc...)

No doubt Gods evolved, but reflexes demonstrate certain aspects of God remained fairly static. I have theories as to why that would be the case, however that would take to long to cover in a comment.

Nobody is going to take you seriosuly if it's just, "Here's my theory without citing any evidence." In contrast to your claim, here's how the Oxford Introduction to Proto-Indo-European begins their section on "Deities":

Below are summarized the names or types of deities that have generally been reconstructed to Proto-Indo-European as we have seen in Section 23.1. It should be emphasized that the proto-categories are perhaps more abstract that their single name might suggest, i.e. what is meant by a war god may have actually included a number of different deities within the earlier system. In some cases we may find the same individual under two different names, e.g. ‘sky daughter’ and ‘dawn’ would appear to be the same deity. In other cases, a single deity from one of the Indo-European traditions may be included under a number of different headings. Just as a screenwriter when working from a literary source will routinely collapse different characters into a single individual to have a manageable cast for his script, so also did the different Indo-European groups juggle with their deities to fill out sometimes multiple roles, e.g. the use of the sky god in Greece and Rome to fulfill roles of the thunder god, war god, and others.

In other words, the gods weren't static. They sometimes did retain some main attributes, but even the sky god (who would be known to the Greeks and Latins as Zeus and Jupiter) underwent significant change. How could they not? There were 3000 years, or so, between PIE culture and the ancient Greeks. The Romans were even later than that.

Greeks were fairly smart people. Take Plato's account of the myth of Phaeton: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phaethon#Plato's_Timaeus Not all Greeks may have believed in the literal existence of the Gods. - So they referred to the "religion/cult" of a God as the God themselves.

I don't understand what the importance of this statement is. Nobody ever claimed all Greeks believed the myths. The only claim is that myths evolve over time. It's hard to keep stories straight over millenia, and a good storyteller may add new embellishments that become part of the canon -- until someone else comes along and changes it again, as the Oxford book I cited explains.

Hence my research.

How do we expect to find cognates across multiple PIE cultures if the etymology itself is so poorly attested?

Find the etymology and the PIE Hermes will emerge.

Your research is mostly just Wikipedia and Wiktionary entries. That's not real research. At best, it's background to start doing research. I would be careful, because, just like you, some Wiki editors may have their own pet theories and scultped those Wiki entries to match them. You should be confident enough in the literature, as well as the primary and secondary sources, that you shouldn't need Wiki to do this, if you want this theory of yours to go anywhere.

As per my research, and aforementioned comments of Pan/Pushan, it may be possible that there were two competing PIE cults of very similar nature - Pushan and Hermes/Mithra.

A lot of assumptions with still no evidence, aside from trying to tie together some Wiki entries.

Oh, he certainly was a pre Roman God, it's in both the Wikipedia page and in the very same Oxford Classical Dictionary you just shared:

"Traditionally the Terminus on the Capitol had been there before the temple of Jupiter". Wikipedia explains that he was a pre-roman God that was assimilated into Jupiter.

​That temple was still within Roman times, as the Oxford book explains. The Wiki entry says that he was "of Sabine origin", which was a culture on the Italian peninsula contemporary with the Romans. I think you still need to find a source that claims Terminus dates back to pre-Italic, because the sources we've looked at say he doesn't.

This right here... I do not understand AT ALL why I can't find a research paper explaining this. Without an explanation it feels like it is laziness. Almost like "God of the Gaps" but for etymology. I've already explained to you that the origin of this is in the book This right here... I do not understand AT ALL why I can't find a research paper explaining this. Without an explanation it feels like it is laziness. Almost like "God of the Gaps" but for etymology.

I already pointed out that the source for this is the later editions of Walde-Hoffmann's book, which aren't online. Have you engaged with this book yet? It occurs to me that we're the lazy ones for not actually looking at the scholarship that's not always digitized. (Interlibrary loan is your friend.)

But even then, there's no evidence that Merx came from Etruscan, it is only speculated to do so. - No word we have ever found in Etruscan provides evidence for this, Nor is there an Etruscan God called anywhere near the word "Mercurio".

There's no evidence it came from anywhere. That's the rub of the whole thing. It's enticing to look at merx and mark in Latin and think "Ah ha! They must ultimately have the same root!" Yet, language is full of false friends. Without evidence, it's not even a theory. Just a hypothesis.

The reason that the Etruscan hypothesis has legs is that we don't see 'merx' anywhere else in any PIE language. If it's of PIE origin, where is it hiding in other PIE languages? Even if merx and mark do have the same root, then how does Latin end up with two separate words when all other PIE languages before it had only one?

A reasonable hiding place is that it doesn't have a PIE origin. And if that's the case, then who are the likely non-PIE suspects to come in contact with the Romans? The Etruscans are top of the list. That offers a reasonable explanation on how Latin came to have both merx and mark while all other IE languages before them just had mark.

Now, that doesn't mean that the Etruscans couldn't have borrowed it from an earlier PIE culture, tranformed it, and then the Romans took it back from them, and that's how they got two words. Yet, if that's the case, and we're wildly speculating about how this could have happened, then a godly origin isn't necessary. The Etruscans could have learned the PIE mark meaning boundary/border, because it was the term used for the border town they did trade in. To them, then, this term morphed into merx meaning market. And then Latin ended up with merx = market and mark = border/mark. A pretty simple and reasonable explanation, which doesn't require an unattested adoption of religious deities - it mostly just requires the words themselves. Yet, just like any other explanation, there is no evidence for it. So what do Latin scholars make of all of it? They just say that merx is probably not of immediate IE origin, which would mean its most likely origin is non-IE, like Etruscan, but unconfirmed. Since it's unattested, they leave it at that as the best we can say given the currently available sources.

I don't think your theory is a bad one. I think you probably could make a decent case for it in an academic paper, if you actually engaged with the scholarship first and learned all about it. But this latest research doesn't convince me any more than your original post - it's just got more Wikipedia/Wiktionary links now. Once you actually have a good working knowledge of the subjects of PIE reconstructed mythology, as well as Latin, Greek, and Etruscan etymology, you can try to debunk it from a place of knowledge.

If you aren't motivated, one thing you might try is to contact the authors of this paper. It's a recent paper where they appear to try to reconstruct the roots of merx and Mercury into Oscan. Brian D. Joseph is a linguistics professor at Ohio State, and Rex E. Wallace is a professor at UMass. You might try emailing them and asking about any previous scholarship related to the Latin etymology of merx. I wouldn't bother them with your full-fledged theory, but even a simple question like, "Why do Latin scholars think merx and mark came from two separate origins?" may lead you to some of the academic basis for this claim.

Bottom line, from our thread, I am still unconvinced that either one of us yet has the background knowledge on the necessary subjects to make these claims without running into some scholarship (Hoffmann?) that we haven't read, which will explain why this theory has been considered and rejected.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

PART 1 of 2

This is a misunderstanding what the claim is.

Apologies, I didn't explain myself well, I'll try to do better in future.

I understood your claim, I'm saying that the inverse of your claim has more evidence. I'll address it below.

Admittedly Etymology is a fairly new field of study for me (just over a year of hobbying), however I am well versed in mythological and cultural evolution - so I'll use that in order to argue my claim.

The claim is that Hermes was some other god [...] after which he took on some of the son's attributes.

This is unlikely, as Hermes appears in Mycenean Greek in Linear B, much earlier than Pan's first written appearance.

Pan doesn't have an animistic form - while Hermes does.(No, there's no evidence of goat worship in ancient greece, but plenty of evidence that stone pillars were worshiped)

The worship of Pan variants is uncommon in other IE cultures (except Pushan in Sanskrit). While you can with Hermes if you follow the animistic form (the altar stone pillar/post).

The ultimate source of the word "Hermes" and his origin as a deity is unknown

How far back do you mean by "ultimate"?

As per above, Hermes has older written attestation.

Also, the mystery is only unknown when looked at the etymology in isolation. - Any holistic analysis is capable of demonstrating the origin.

but all sources seem to agree that his root is not in PIE

This isn't true - some scholarship claims it originates from "ser-", others from "wer-".

If you say MOST agree that his root is not in PIE - well, you may have a case there.

Nobody is going to take you seriosuly if it's just, "Here's my theory without citing any evidence."

  1. I didn't provide a theory, I stated a known fact that some mythological reflexes remain constant across cultures.
  2. I mentioned that I have a theory - I never asked you to accept a theory without evidence because I never told you the theory in the first place.

In contrast to your claim [...] section on "Deities":

This doesn't contrast my claim at all.

I said "Yes and no" and then I followed with "SOME cultural reflexes remained static".The second paragraph follows with: "No doubt Gods evolved".

Your own statement summarises my claim quite well:

In other words, the gods weren't static. They sometimes did retain some main attributes

I don't understand what the importance of this statement is.

The importance of the statement is to demonstrate that myths weren't trivial stories. They were didatic tools in an age prior to writing. As such, myths had a reliable structure which meant that myths were unlikely to change meaningfully without good reasons. e.g. addition of a new technology, a major natural event (e.g. a comet impact), the encounter with another culture etc...

This statement is evidence (Plato counts as evidence right?) that ancient greeks didn't see these myths as stories about actual people or Gods. The Gods are symbols or allegories for either lessons or memory of actual events.

Therefore they will evolve differently than a piece of fiction might evolve. Myths evolve in a more stable pattern - Here's further evidence: https://youtu.be/1nsk7KaIcm8

Regarding Hermes' myth, the lack of a father indicates his cult is older than the Olympian pantheon, and possibly older than Ancestor worship itself. (The same is true for Pan).

The attempt of establishing a father within the Olympian pantheon could be a number of things:

  1. Attempt to integrate and categorize the Hermes cult within the Olympian structure,
  2. Attempt to understand whether it was an offshoot of solar worship (Apollo) or offshoot of Ancestor/Shepherd worship (Pan).

Your research is mostly just Wikipedia and Wiktionary entries

Wiki editors may have their own pet theories and scultped those Wiki entries to match them

Agreed, but the Wiktionary and Wikipedia pages reference their sources, which I went through diligently over the past 6 months.

Hence why I directed my criticism directly at the sources, rather than Wiktionary itself.

As aforementioned, the main problem is that the sources are not research papers, they don't list the assumptions of the editors, they don't list the context for the decisions taken.

Without the context and explanations the sources look a lot like educated guesses on the part of the scholars.

That's not real research. At best, it's background to start doing research

if you want this theory of yours to go anywhere.

I agree... this is not my day job. It won't ever be my day job, I don't want this theory to go anywhere other than an interesting discussion on reddit.

You should be confident enough in the literature, that you shouldn't need Wiki to do this,

I disagree, this is the entire point of Encyclopedias, Dictionaries, Lexicons, Scientific Journals, etc...

Only experts in their field, are usually confident in primary and secondary sources. Most researchers know WHERE to find the sources. - Wikipedia/Wiktionary is as good a place as any.

Additionally, Meta analysis is a thing.

As I said, this is not my day job, so I'm not looking to publish anywhere, this is sufficiently detailed for my purposes.

A lot of assumptions with still no evidence, aside from trying to tie together some Wiki entries.

  1. Of course it is an assumption - Hence why I said "it may be possible".
  2. The wiki entries have the sources, if you disagree with those sources say so. Otherwise you're judging a book by its cover.

That temple was still within Roman times [...] The Wiki entry says that he was "of Sabine origin" [...] contemporary with the Romans.

I know what you mean, but you must be careful about what you ACTUALLY write - let me show you... your own words:

before the Romans invented him as a god

he did not exist as a god until the Romans created him as one

If you said Italic, I'd agree with you, but you said "roman".

"Romans", or more precisely "Latins" are a very specific people within the Italic family.

Sabine is PRE-roman, and not from the Latino-Faliscan family, they are Umbrian (Osco-Umbrian family).

And if Termenos was a God in Sabine culture, there's a strong chance that he may also have been one in other Italic cultures.

I think you still need to find a source that claims Terminus dates back to pre-Italic.

I never claimed Terminus is a pre-Italic "GOD"... At this stage I am just exploring a potential etymological connection between Hermes and Terminus.

The question of whether Termenos is a pre-Italic God, that's a much bigger question, with a variety of possible answers. If you'd like to address that theory feel free to DM me, it's a fun rabbit hole.

I have some answers, most unrelated to Etymology, but they are puzzle pieces and I'm still a long way from putting them all together.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

PART 2 OF 2

I already pointed out that the source for this is the later editions of Walde-Hoffmann's book, which aren't online.

Have you engaged with this book yet?

Here's the 1938 version, I found this 2 months ago while researching, see for yourself: https://archive.org/details/walde/page/n985/mode/2up

I used Google Lens to translate as I don't speak german, but no explanation. It's just an etymological lexicon.

Maybe in the 1958 edition there's something more.

Where is the published peer-review paper arguing against PIE origin? - Any evidence for an Etruscan origin? (e.g. An inscription in Etruscan, a roman title for an Etruscan city name, trade title, produce title, a name of an Etruscan God that sounds remotely like Merx, etc...)

Remember that etymological reconstructions are very speculative and often limited by the knowledge of the author. - A lot more research in phonology and archeology has come out since.

In the past 5 years even the argument that Etruscan isn't Indo-European might be overturned thanks to Genetic and Archeological evidence. Etruscan might simply be Indo-European older than Anatolian and Tocharian. (If you want evidence feel free to ask).

Without evidence, it's not even a theory. Just a hypothesis.

Etymology, phonology & linguistics ARE evidence.

There are known phonetic evolutionary laws, and we have known semantics.

I'm not going "ah ha!", I took my time researching multiple etymologies to reach my conclusions. I demonstrated I understand phonetic evolution of Greek, Italic and PIE. I followed the rules of the game.

The current gap in scholarship is the lack of a solid theory to connect:

  1. "Merx" = Goods & "Mark" = Margin/Mark/Barrier.
  2. Hermes to Terminus.

I believe I can provide a fully coherent model with predictive capability and refutability - I can demonstrate a cultural / technological advancement which underpins this etymology, I can demonstrate how the semantic shift is likely to occur, and I can demonstrate cognates in other languages.

My solution is to look at the problem holistically rather than the etymology in isolation.

Even if merx and mark do have the same root, then how does Latin end up with two separate words

Oh this one is the easiest to explain, there are multiple paths any given language can end up with two words from the same root:

  1. Different semantic evolution
    1. e.g. Portuguese Ceu = Sky & Coluna = Column, both originate from Latin Caelum.
    2. We can see this process occurring in English with the word Trunk.
  2. Borrowing from another language
    1. e.g. English Warden (From Germanic) & Guardian (From French). - Both ultimately from same proto-germanic root.

Here's one possible model of semantic evolution for Mark & Merx ONLY - other semantic evolution models are possible, particularly if you use an earlier origin.

  1. Origin:
    1. Noun - a tool used to separate a whole into parts.
    2. Verb - the act of division / separation
  2. Initial evolution
    1. Mark -> An object/line to mark the boundary that separates two parts of a whole / The act of marking a boundary
    2. Merx - the act of dividing a whole into equal parts. (e.g. halves, quarters, thirds). / An object that has been divided into equal parts.
  3. Main evolution
    1. Mark => Boundary marker / Margin
    2. Merx =>
      1. Verb - The act of measuring
      2. Noun - A measuring device
      3. Noun - A produce that is sold in standard measured quantities. (e.g. An ounce of milk / a measure of milk)

Another possible semantic evolution path:

  1. Origin:
    1. An object that marks a physical location.
  2. Initial evolution
    1. Mark -> An object marking the physical location of a territory boundary.
    2. Merx -> An object marking the physical location of a space for shared trading. (e.g. a trading post)

when all other PIE languages before it had only one?

IE languages before them just had mark.

I believe you can't justify these statements if you think about it long enough. - This post is already over the character limit, so I'll provide you with evidence if you have reason to dispute this after thinking about it.

godly origin isn't necessary

This was never my claim, I'm not saying Merx and Mark came from the same God.

I'm just saying that it is possible they have an etymological connection. - the God aspect is related to the same shared root, rather than the God being the root.

I don't think your theory is a bad one. I think you probably could make a decent case for it in an academic paper

Thank you very much, this actually means a lot to me.

At the end of the day I have no intention of taking it any further than a fun discussion on Reddit, but if at least my logic is sound, I can live with my evidence being poor.

If you aren't motivated, one thing you might try is to contact the authors of this paper.

Sounds interesting - I'll try that!

One last thing is that I would encourage you to pick up a copy of The Oxford Introduction to Proto-Indo-European and the Proto-Indo-European World

That's just wikipedia with extra steps lol

I'm not die-hard enough to be motivated to read through that.

I'm generally interested in researching a single topic in depth but holistically. I'll research broadly and shallowly multiple fields of studies just to have enough context to understand the research on my chosen topic.

In this particular case I'm interested in the emergence of a new technology which shaped human culture in a major way. Namely the compass & solar clock.

I believe this technology is the precursor to the four-spoked wheel, to astronomy, geometry, the measurement of time & direction, and the reason why cultures migrated such long distances.

Such a technology had such a major impact into culture that I think it was fossilized into myth & language, being the source of lots of idioms.

This single technology is the connection between Hermes and Terminus. - Therefore my interest in their etymology specifically.

Hence why my research into etymology is enough to superficially understand the context, but I'm not interested in it any further than that.

Sorry for the multiple replies, but I just re-read my long post and it comes off a bit hostile. I just want you to know, I'm not being critical just to be an asshole. I'm trying to be constructive, and realistic

I appreciate this a lot! Honestly!

Thank you for the feedback.

[–]hexagonalwagonal 0 points1 point  (0 children)

One last thing is that I would encourage you to pick up a copy of The Oxford Introduction to Proto-Indo-European and the Proto-Indo-European World, just as a start. It has a LENGTHY bibliographic section - a few hundred sources. I was going to copy-and-paste it here, but it was going to take 7 separate posts, it's that long! There appears to be loads of information on PIE, etymology, and IE religions that will help shape a more informed opinion.

[–]WikiSummarizerBot 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Proto-Indo-European mythology

Proto-Indo-European mythology is the body of myths and deities associated with the Proto-Indo-Europeans, the hypothetical speakers of the reconstructed Proto-Indo-European language. Although the mythological motifs are not directly attested – since Proto-Indo-European speakers lived in preliterate societies – scholars of comparative mythology have reconstructed details from inherited similarities found among Indo-European languages, based on the assumption that parts of the Proto-Indo-Europeans' original belief systems survived in the daughter traditions.

[ F.A.Q | Opt Out | Opt Out Of Subreddit | GitHub ] Downvote to remove | v1.5

[–]ILEAATD -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Wiktionary is an awful garbage site that is no better than Urban Dictionary.

[–]TachyonTime 6 points7 points  (3 children)

Etymonline? It's someone's personal project but the etymologies are sourced from various etymological print dictionaries, so it's at least somewhat trustworthy.

The OED is the best resource for English imo, but it requires a paid subscription.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Thank you! - this is great for english words.
Not very different from Wikitionary though.

[–]TachyonTime 2 points3 points  (1 child)

No problem! But yes, I imagine a lot of Wiktionary's entries are copied from there.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Same

[–]mahendrabirbikram 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I usually use specific dictionaries. This compendium is helpful, too (contains references to specific dictionaries) https://starlingdb.org/cgi-bin/main.cgi

[–]ExultantGitana 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I cross reference with all the above and if you know another language, it really adds depth if you look it up in that language - especially if you're studying English words and your other language is Germanic or Romance. The depth will help you understand how the word got to where it is at the point where you looking. If you happen to know any Spanish, this site is excellent for cross referencing the others mentioned http://etimologias.dechile.net/ Hope I'm making sense here.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That's awesome! I do in fact do this.

Particularly since my interest in Etymology emerged from the fact I speak quite a few languages, Romance mostly + English.

Unfortunately what I'm researching in is closer to PIE than to Romance languages, so it is fairly difficult to research too begin with... a lot of speculation even from the "experts".

[–]ExultantGitana 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That speculation is soo interesting! Have fun! Might look at older languages? Shrug

[–]Priosla 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I always access the OED website via my public library's website...it's in the catalog as an "electronic resource." I just click the link, enter my library card info, and boom, the English language in all its glory. Not sure how common that is (I'm in Seattle).