Mandarin phonetically doesn't resemble Tungusic at all, Jurchen/Manchu shares more phonetically with Cantonese than with Mandarin. Both Jurchen/Manchu and Cantonese share consonant k finals in syllables while Mandarin does not. The only consonant final in a syllable that Mandarin has is N. Mandarin has the retroflex initials of zh ch sh and the r initial (the pinyin value which is like the French J) which neither Jurchen nor Cantonese have. A Manchu and Cantonese would have easier time pronouncing each other's syllables than either with Mandarin.

Same with Mongolian which has g consonant finals like in Khamag.

In fact both Manchus and Cantonese pronounce the word for capital 京 as Ging while Mandarin pronounces it as Jing. Chinese loanwords into Mongol like Kublai Khan's sons name Zhenjin (真金) became Jingim in Mongol which is Zangam in Cantonese. Manchus call Beijing as Peging.

Chinese loanwords into Manchu and Mongol are nearly identical to the Cantonese versions while different from the Mandarin one. Mandarin speakers don't know how to say ging or gam/gim.

Manchu Dahai had to add extra letters to Manchu just to represent Mandarin initials zh ch sh r (the pinyin sound values not the English values) that aren't found in Manchu, Mongol or Cantonese when he needed to transcribe Mandarin words with Manchu script.

Mandarin phonetics have nothing to do with Manchu or Mongol contrary to urban legends.

Mandarin phonology isn't influenced by Mongol/Khitan/Manchu.

Chinese loanwords into Khitan, Mongol and Manchu preserve the G initial in words like Ging 京 and Gim 金 like Cantonese does, Mongols and Khitans both pronounced Jin as Gim in the example I gave with Zhenjin and Manchus pronounce Jing as Ging, same as Cantonese.

Mandarin independently shifted to a G -> J initial sound in words like jing and jin on its own, while Manchu and Mongol preserve the old G sound like Cantonese does.

Cantonese has multiple consonant finals like p/b t/d k/g in words like pak, yap, yut.

Manchu has multiple consonant finals like Cantonese, p/b t/d, k/g in Manchu words like akjan (ak-jan), abka (ab-ka). So does Mongol in words like Khamag (the syllable mag has a g final). Mongol also has L finals in words like khool/xool.

Mandarin totally lacks p/b t/d/ k/g finals and only has N as a consonant final in words like nan, ban, fan. So the Mandarin loss of p t k finals is not due to Manchu, Mongol or Khitan.

Mandarin developed its own unique retroflex initials zh ch sh in words like zhang chang shang. Manchu, Mongol, Khitan, Cantonese, Min and Hakka all don't have the zh ch sh sounds. Native speakers of those languages cannot pronounce those sounds. The Manchu Dahai who invented Manchu script from Mongol had to add extra letters to Manchu to write zh ch sh (and the r initial) when he needed to transcribe Mandarin.

If you ask a monolongual Cantonese, Manchu and Mongol speaker to pronounce ak, they can all pronounce it. If you ask a monolilngual Mandarin speaker to pronounce ak, he will be forced to break it into two syllables, A-ke 阿可 because Mandarin doesn't have the K final at the end of a syllable.

If you ask a monolingual Cantonese, Manchu and Mongol speaker to pronounce Zhang Chang Shang they would pronounce it as zang cang sang (the pinyin values not the English values of those letters). Because only Mandarin has those initial sounds. Same with the R pinyin initial.

If you know basic linguistics and are familiar with the phonetics, initials and finals of these languages you would know Mandarin phonology didn't change due to those languages. The main difference between Mandarin, and Cantonese, Hakka and Min is that Mandarin has the Zh Ch Sh R initials and lacks p t k finals while it only has an n consonant final. I just proved that none of those are due to Khitan, Mongol or Manchu.

Mongol and Turkic languages adopted words with L initials in loanwords from Chinese in words like Luu for dragon from Long 龍 and Laghman noodles from Lamian 拉面 so they may be more flexible in accepting sounds from other languages but Mandarin is not flexible to adopting other languages phonetics. L initials don't occur in native Mongol or Turkic words.

Also there were and still are native Mandarin dialects spoken in southern China like southeastern Mandarin (south of the Huai river in Jiangsu and Anhui) and southwestern Mandarin (in Hubei, parts of Hunan) that existed in medieval times and they have the same characteristics as other Mandarin dialects. The Liao dynasty ruled only the sixteen prefectures, not even southern Shanxi or Hebei and the Jin dynasty never ruled south of the Huai river or south of Hubei.

Tones aren't what people think of when they say Mandarin is different from Cantonese, Hakka or Min. They immediately think of the fact that Mandarin lacks p t k consonant finals and has the retroflex zh ch sh initials or R initial and then falsely claim Mongols and Manchu languages introduced zh ch sh and are the reason why p t k finals are gone. Or they blame the G->J shift in Mandarin on Manchu or Mongol, which is totally false. All this shows they have no idea what Manchu or Mongol sound like.

I am not talking about grammar or loan words, but phonemes. I also forgot, Cantonese, Manchu and Mongol all have M finals while Mandarin has none.

Mongol sambar (sam-bar)

Manchu tacimbi (ta-cim-bi)

Cantonese Lam 林 藍

A Mandarin person asked to pronounce Lam would be forced to break it into two syllables, La-mu.

Just like Japanese were forced to break the 國 word into two syllables, koku (ko-ku) because they couldn't pronounce a k final at the end of the syllable when they borrowed the word from Middle Chinese. Koreans and Vietnamese can pronounce a K final which is why they pronounce it as gok 국 and quốc when they borrowed it from Old Chinese or Middle Chinese.

Mandarin independently dropped p t k and developed zh ch sh and didn't borrow those changes from other languages.

Khitan, Mongol and Manchu transcriptions of the initial sound in words like 經 and 京 both show a G initial like Cantonese, they all pronounce it as Ging justlike Chingim/Zhenjin.

Gin/Ging/Giang/Gian/Gi was transformed to Jin/Jing/Jiang/Jian/Ji in Mandarin independently and not due to outside influence.

My observation regarding Japanese is that, their speakers do not like or is not comfortable with not only consonants at word endings, but also successive consonants in the middle of a word.

So, generally, they add a vowel after a consonant at the end of a word (except n, which is pronounced kind of like ng) or a vowel to separate successive consonants (except ng or sh) in the middle of a word.

So, a country name like Brazil becomes Burajiru. And a guy's name like Abraham becomes Aburahamu. While a guy's name like Abdul Rahmat becomes Abuduru Rahamatu.

It's not that they are uncomfortable with it. The structure of the language means that there *are* no standalone consonents, apart from n.

You can't *write* "Bob Smith" in Japanese. The letters don't exist. Japanese is based on syllables, so "bo-bbu su-mi-su" is five letters plus one doubling up mark (which turns "bu" into "bbu") - ボッブ　スミス

In fact, Hong Kong Cantonese has the most foreign words, but this is not the case with Guangdong Cantonese.
Most of the English words in Hong Kong Cantonese are due to the long-term British colonial rule. As of 1978, there were not so many foreign words in Cantonese in Guangdong Province. Later, with the introduction of Hong Kong pop culture, it exerted influence on Cantonese in Guangdong Province.

Non-sequitur. Jurchen and Khitan had consonant finals other than N which Mandarin doesn't. There are Jurchen descendants living in Fuzhou and Quanzhou from the Nian 粘 family so are you going to claim Fuzhounese and Quanzhou Minnan are Jurchen pidgins?

Khitan were settled in Yunnan by the Yuan and their descendants, who are know known as the Ben people live there today among ethnic minorities, while Mongols mixed with Yi and became Khatso in Yunnan. Are going to claim Yi language is Mongol pidgin too?

Yuan dynasty lumped all southern Song subjects, both southern Han and southern ethnic minorities together as southerners, despite speaking totally different languages and being different ethnicities. These classes had nothing to do with ethnic mixing but were a category used for former subjects of the preceding dynasties. All Jin subjects regardless of ethnicity were put into one class along with all ethnic subjects of Dali kingdom and Goryeo while all southern Song subjects regardless of ethnicity were in another class.

Many people misunderstand Mandarin, the representative of modern PRC Chinese, and think that it is a fusion language of Chinese and Mongolian or Jurchen. But in fact, this kind of fusion does not exist at all. Many evolutions of Mandarin Chinese actually occurred as early as the Tang and Song dynasties, and it was used as the standard orthographic pronunciation in the Ming Dynasty.
I saw in another thread talking about Mandarin Chinese being irrelevant to Mongolian and Manchu from the point of view of morphemes. Even Cantonese is closer to Mongolian and Manchu in terms of morphemes than Mandarin. Manchu.
Do we have any linguists who can elaborate and analyze this in more detail?

Mandarin dialects also exist in southern China, Southwestern Mandarin in Sichuan, Yunnan, Guizhou, Guangxi and parts of Hunan and Hubei, and the junjia hua (military household speech) spoken by Ming military households stationed in Hainan, Guangdong and Fujian who originated from the Jianghuai region and spoke southeastern Mandarin. The Hongwu emperor sent them to the southeastern coastal regions as military garrisons.

Manchu language itself is a deviant among the Tungusic languages due to influence by Khitan and Mongolian. It is different from northern Tungusic languages like Evenki. The Khitan ruled the Jurchens for 200 years in the Liao dynasty and practiced prima nocta (right of first night) on Jurchen virgin girls before demanding their married women which is when the Jurchens finally revolted. And later the Mongols conquered the Jurchens and Mongol men taking Jurchen wives founded new clans among the Jurchens like Yehe nara that didn't exist in the original Jin dynasty.

Aisin Gioro, Silin Gioro and Irgen Gioro of the Later Jin all didn't exist among Jurchen clans during the original Jin dynasty, they were founded by stranger men, Aisin Gioro are possibly related to a Mongolic Daur clan.

Jurchen/Manchu farmers absorbed linguistic influence and blood from nomads who ruled them like the Khitan that separates them from other Tungusics.

大遼盛時，銀牌天使至女真，每夕必欲薦枕者。其國舊輪中、下戶作止宿處，以未出適女待之。後求海東青使者絡繹，恃大國使命，惟擇美好婦人，不問其有夫及閥閱高者，女真浸忿，遂叛。初，女真有戎器而無甲，遼之近親有以眾叛，間入其境上，為女真一酋說而擒之，得甲首五百。女真賞其酋為阿盧甲移賫。〈彼云第三個官人，亦呼為相公。〉

I forgot the word "ergi" (er-gi) in his post.

Mandarin doesn't have gi because the g sound before certain vowels shifted to j, Mandarin has ji now and not gi.

Mandarin loanwords into Manchu like the word for capital, ging preserve the old g initial instead of jing.

Why would Manchu influence cause Mandarin to have the opposite effect and shift to J (jing and ji) while Manchu pronounces the same words as ging and gi.

zh ch don't exist in either Manchu or Mongol. Dahai had to add these letters for Mandarin sounds that didn't exist in Manchu, here in their pinyin values.

zh ᡷᡟ ch ᡱᡟ r ᡰ z ᡯ

I am not a linguist or any sort near to it. I am just a roamer in history. I have to read more before I give my further opinions with confidence.
I just find out modern day Manchu scholars from the Aisin-Gioro family (the Qing royal family) consider Pekingese a creation by the Qing bannermen living in the Peking inner city. Pekingese was a crippled Han dialect spoken by the Manchu there.It was also influenced by the Han bannermen came from the Liaotung Peninsula. They spoke the Liaotung Han dialect.

Also Matteo Ricci the Italian Jesuit in Peking (1552-1610) during the Ming dynasty did record that there were no zh, ch, sh initial sounds for the then Peking official language spoken.
The current Pekingese in its unique form don't carry a history for more than 400 years.

I am a Cantonese native speaker but still I can handle the 'l" or "ll" end sounds well as I had studied English quite early at about 7 years old from English teachers intermittently onwards.
I still can remember the Oxford English Text Book lesson one - " A man and a pan, a pan and a man." Long long time ago.

Except you are pretending to be a linguist now. I've seen tons of people use this sneaky tactic, saying "i am not an expert and not pretending to be one, i have to read more and I amd just giving my opinion" and then its followed by a completely bullshit fabricated statement about the topic and they are indeed pretending to be an expert and claiming their bullshit is true.

-I just find out modern day Manchu scholars from the Aisin-Gioro family (the Qing royal family) consider Pekingese a creation by the Qing bannermen living in the Peking inner cit

The Manchu Jin (Aisin Gioro) Qicong was a collaborator with Japan. He studied in Japan during World War II. His daughter is married to a Japanese. He also didn't provide a single linguistic analysis in his rant and instead quoted a bunch of anecdotes.

Manchus were massacred and raped by by the Eight Nation Alliance (including by Japanese soldiers) in Beijing in 1900 and Manchus in Xi'an, Zhenjiang and other places were massacred in 1911 and their women were taken by Han Xinhai revolutionaries. Manchu writers like Lao She spoke about their familial trauma from the Eight Nation alliance atrocities, which Jin Qicong's family would also have gone through since Aisin Gioro were in Beijing.

Many of these people were embittered and angry (the people of Xi'an were never occupied by Japan and they got away without any punishment) and needed to find some way to make themselves feel better by inventing falsehoods.

-Also Matteo Ricci the Italian Jesuit in Peking (1552-1610) during the Ming dynasty did record that there were no zh, ch, sh initial sounds for the then Peking official language spoken.

I got bad news, the zh ch sh initial sounds don't exist in Manchu either. The Manchu Dahai had to ADD extra letters for the retroflex zh ch sh initials to the Manchu alphabet to show Mandarin loanwords in Manchu since Manchus didn't have those sounds and don't know how to pronounce them. Which shows your information is wrong since Dahai lived during the Ming dynasty.

Show and quote the exact text by Matteo Ricci because I am confident you will not be able to find it. If zh ch sh sounds didn't exist then Ricci wouldn't even have mentioned that they didn't exist. You can't write about the existence or non-existence of sounds that you don't even know about.

-I am a Cantonese native speaker but still I can handle the 'l" or "ll" end sounds well as I had studied English quite early at about 7 years old from English teachers intermittently onwards.

And Mandarin speakers can not even handle the l finals in Manchu words like Niyalma (ni-yal-ma) and k finals in Manchu words like akjan (ak-jan). A Mandarin speaker would break them into ni-ya-le-ma or ni-ya-er-ma and a-ke-zhan.

A native Manchu speaker can say yal and ak in one syllable but a native Mandarin speaker cannot.

Which shows you are wrong. You can pronounce L finals from English but Mandarin speakers after 200 years cannot even pronounce the Manchu L final or K final.

And

Manchu also has R initials in syllables, Mandarin only has R finals at the end of a single syllable, Er.

Mandarin has to use L initial syllables to transcribe Manchu syllables that begin with R.

The Pinyin R is not the English R, it's the French J sound.

The Qing government had to create dictionaries with Mandarin transcriptions of Manchu words to teach bannermen the Manchu language in the 18th century since many of them spoke Mandarin as their first language by then. This resulted in Manchus pronouncing Manchu wrongly, they would pronounce R initials sounds as L. Their Manchu was spoken with Mandarin phonetics not vice versa.

-<He> further don't know (nirui gusa)

The example of Nirui in your post was transcribed in Mandarin as Niulu 牛錄 during the Qing, because Mandarin does not have R initials it is forced to use an L initial syllable.

Mandarin did not adopt any sounds from Manchu nor did it lose any sounds because of Manchu. If it did, it would sound like Cantonese now.

I am talking about a time frame of 4 to 5 thousand years ago. Shirokogoroff thought that the Tungusic people (including the ancestors of Jin and Manchus) had populated the eastern China, the eastern Yellow river plain. Then came the proto-Han people pushing them going North and South if not assimilated.

>It is a fact that current Pekingese daily talking includes words and word modifications from the Mongol and Manchu languages.

It is a very fact that the Tungusic language family originated from the link between the North China plain millet agriculture zone and Amur valley
Perhaps this can be defined as the nucleus or a nucleus of China

Long ago, even long before written records, the inhabitants of Hebei implanted themselves deep into the heartland of the Northeast. And only then in more recent times during the Medieval periods, started migration toward the inner pale of civilization to rejoin with their long last family

That is not proper response to the forementioned question posed.

Mandarin was heavily promoted as lingua franca of northern realms of China. Just like Vulgar Latin was employed in Gaul and was the predecessor that became French, but had been conflated or confused by the ascendancy of Franks or Salian Franks in and around the Isle of France during the Carolingians and Merovingians

It was Manchu transcription of Mandarin that preserved the old Mandarin jiantuan sounds which modern Beijing Mandarin and Standard Mandarin lost (through its own internal evolution). It was the shape of Manchu letters that was used to choose the characters to describe the jiantuan sounds since it was described in the Qing dynasty (although it already existed in Mandarin).

https://baike.baidu.hk/item/%E5%B0%96%E5%9C%98%E9%9F%B3/9996347

https://www.scirp.org/journal/paperinformation?paperid=112490

It says in 圓音正考 that the very name jiantuan came from describing the Manchu letters used to transcribe Mandarin. Manchu letters ᡴ ᡤ ᡥ are round and ᠵ ᠰ ᠴ are sharp.

Manchu transcription preserves the jiantuan distinction- jing as ging, jiang as giang, ji as gi, xi as si or hi, xia as siya, xin as sin.

That's why Manchus wrote down Beijing as Beging when writing in Manchu not as Bejing.

Jiantuan sound distinction is also preserved in Peking opera which was performed at the Qing court and patronised by Qing emperors. Peking opera started under the Qing.

It's also preserved in multiple other Mandarin dialects in the north like in Henan.

In Europe, the "official languages" are usually "standardized languages" (usually having their origin in a certain dialect, often that dialect being linked with the center of power) and usually there's an (official and/or recognized) institution in charge with "guarding" it.

For example, the "guardian" of the French language is "l'Académie Française" (since its establishment in 1635):

« La principale fonction de l’Académie sera de travailler, avec tout le soin et toute la diligence possibles, à donner des règles certaines à notre langue et à la rendre pure, éloquente et capable de traiter les arts et les sciences." (The Academy's main function will be to work, with as much care and diligence as possible, to give certain rules to our language and to render it pure, eloquent and capable of treating the arts and sciences)


My question is: is there an equivalent institution today in China?

If yes, since when?

Thank You.

In the People's Republic of China, the standard language is officially referred to as 普通话 and is based on 北京话 from the Beijing region. The formal official institution responsible for its standardization is the National Language Regulating Committee, overviewed by the Ministry of Education of the People's Republic of China and headquartered in Beijing.

Since "Standard Chinese" is a pluricentric language, there are at least other two official standardized forms besides the one in the People's Republic of China:

- One in Taiwan/Republic of China, commonly referred to as 國語 and regulated by the National Languages Committee in Taipei;

- Another one in Singapore/Malaysia, commonly referred to as 华语 and regulated by the Singaporean "Promote Mandarin Council" institution and the Malaysian Chinese Language Standardization Council of Malaysia in Kuala Lumpur.

All those modern standardized forms of the language are roughly the same, all based on 北京话, and pretty much similar to each other, minus the accent, slang, and some differing lexicon between them.

Thank You.

Well, it's not really different compared to Europe.

The Jurchens were farmers and sedentary since the beginning and were never nomads in the steppe.

The Khitan in the Liao dynasty were always nomads and never became sedentary.

After the Jurchens defeated the Liao, the Khitan royal, Yelu Dashi led a horse of Khitan to flee the Jurchen and conquer Muslim Central Asia founding the Western Liao (Qara Khitai) empire after defeating the Seljuqs and Qara Khanids. Outnumbered Khitan nomads defeated a Seljuq and Qara Khanid Muslim majority in their own homeland. That showed the Liao defeat was due to the Jin being more powerful and not because the Liao became relaxed and weak.

You're doing nonsense pseudo-psychology with these analysis about "sedentary nature".

The Jurchens were smashed by Genghis because Genghis was Genghis, not because Jurchens were "infected" or became "soft". At the end of the Jin dynasty, the Jurchen emperors demanded stricter enforcement of Jurchen language, practice of horse archery and other parts of Jurchen culture among the Jurchens and that's when Genghis crushed them.

Western Xia never became "soft", they waged constant wars with their neighbours including the Jin dynasty, they got crushed after backstabbing Genghis. Again they lost to Genghis because he was Genghis, not because they became weak.

Khitans who remained behind in Jin dynasty and didn't go to Western Liao also remained aggressive, they revolted under Yelü Liuge and Yelü Sibu against the Jin when Genghis invaded, Khitan warlords and Han generals both defected to Genghis and some Khitan fought both the Jurchens and Mongols and even invaded Korea. Mongols were pursuing Khitan into Korea when they entered the peninsula.

"Sedentary" Han generals and soldiers in the Jin also defected to Genghis Khan and these Han generals and soldiers helped in the destruction of the Jin dynasty, Khwarezm (nomad Turkic empire) and the Abbasids.

"Sedentary" Han generals like Guo Baoyu and Shi Bingzhi and Shi Tianze killed Jurchen and Khwarezmian soldiers.

The Jurchens who founded the Jin and Later Jin (Qing) were not nomadic at all. The only "nomadic" Tungusics were the northern hunter gatherers and fishers like Oroqen (not even steppe pastoral nomads like Mongols), not the Jurchens of he Jin and the Jianzhou Jurchens who became Manchus. They were fully settled farmers who lived in sedentary housing and grew crops. The Jurchen homeland was forests and mountains, not steppe.

The Khitan and Turkic Khaganate were pastoral nomads who lived in tents on the steppe and herded animals like the Mongols.

The Northern Song wasn't aggressive, they agreed to a peace treaty with the Liao when the Liao hadn't defeated the Northern Song and hadn't taken a single city. The Liao army was in the field and the Northern Song emperor declined to seek the chance to destroy the Liao. The Northern Song side was the one that suggested the annual payment, the Liao didn't even asked for it. The Northern Song didn't even mention cancelling the payment in negotiations with the Jin against the Liao. The Northern Song did reject a Liao request for a Song princess to marry the Liao emperor, but the payment suggestion was a stupid idea by the Song.

The Southern Song committed a blunder by failing to put imperial princes in the Sichuan mountain fortresses like Diaoyu to serve as Emperor in case everything else was lost. Most of the Sichuan mountain fortresses like Diaoyu only gave up because the Southern Song emperor in Guangdong was cut off from them by 1278 and drowned in 1279 so they had no more head of state, otherwise they weren't in danger of falling at all.

The last Sichuan fortress which refused to surrender lasted to 1288 with the entire might of the Yuan against them alone for eight years, if Diaoyu and the others didn't voluntarily give up in 1278-1279 then combined the Sichuan mountain fortresses would have lasted even longer. Its the same with the Assassin castles in the mountains of Iran, the leader inexplicably surrendered and agreed to wreck his own castles and give them up to Hulagu and he got executed, one Ismaili castle, Gerdkuh (Girdkuh) refused to surrender and lasted for years but the Mongols took it when the defenders ran out of clothes.

The founder of Cheng Han looked at the Sichuan mountains and remarked that the last emperor of Shu Han was a fool for losing when he had all these defenses. The Tang dynasty emperors took shelter in Sichuan twice.

Northern Song general Tong Guan also cut down the entire defensive forest in Hebei meant to impede cavalry attacks from the Liao, when the Jin destroyed the Liao he decided the forest was no longer needed. The Northern Song had planted trees and dug shallow bodies of water to impede both cavalry, foot soldiers and boats. The Jin cavalry would not have entered southern Hebei if he didn't cut down the entire forest.

The Northern Song emperors also gave up trying to move the capital to Chang'an after opposition from officials. The first Ming emperor also considered moving the capital to Chang'an again but the death of the crown prince put an end to it. Kaifeng is exposed right on the northeast plains unlike Chang'an.

The Song emperors were not aggressive enough and deliberately tried to chose the "safe" option.

The Song Dynasty took the extreme of mistrusting military leaders; it believed it had taken the lesson of the Late Tang Dynasty and the Five Dynasties.
Late Tang Dynasty was known for lack of central controls and near feudal local controls, and the Five Dynasties changed rulers too often.
The Song Dynasty attempted to establish strong central controls; initially, it had relatively competent military.
The problem with the Song Dynasty was that its bureaucracy and military swelled without improvements in effectiveness and efficiency, and Wang Anshi's reforms failed.
Late Ming also suffered because most of the resources concentrated in the hands of a few merchants and the gentry, and they were unwilling to support Ming Dynasty.

Li Zicheng and Zhang Xianzhong's rebellions combined with plague and famine killed tens of millions across the Ming, before the Qing stepped through Shanhai pass in 1644.

300,000 civilians were drowned in the battle of Kaifeng between Li Zicheng and the Ming in 1642 and no Qing soldiers were there.

Li Zicheng and Zhang Xianzhong systematically wrecked the Ming military across northern China and Sichuan and the surviving remnants like Wu Sangui defected to the Qing.

The earlier She-An rebellion in the 1620s in the southwest also cost the Ming heavily financially. The plague being spread around at the same time as the rebellions devastated Jiangnan, Beijing and Tianjin immediately before Beijing fell to Li Zicheng. The big merchant and gentry families were dying of plague and starvation by 1644.

All male members of the Ming imperial family were paid fixed salaries for doing nothing and their numbers kept growing to over 200,000 by the end of the Ming, contributing to financial collapse. Li Zicheng's troops looted the mansions of Ming princes in the provinces. Members of the Ming imperial family were forbidden to work, serve as officials or serve in the military and were draining the economy. This destroyed the Ming economy more than any merchants or gentry not paying taxes.

Southern Ming princes did not command their own troops and the entire Southern Ming military and government after Nanjing were in the control of the Zheng family and Zhang Xianzhong's former generals.

The Qing dynasty shut down trade along the entire coastal region to deprive the Zheng family of revenue. I have no idea why you think merchants liked the Qing.

Tens of millions died in the plague, famine and Li and Zhang's rebellions before 1644. The Qing found an already weakened and massively depopulated 18 provinces when Shanhai pass was turned over in 1644.

The population ratio of Han to Eight Bannermen was NOT 100 to 1 in 1644, 100 million was the Ming population in 1620, but massive famine and Great plague and the rebellions of She-An and Li Zicheng and Zhang Xianzhong from 1620-1644 reduced the Ming population by tens of millions before a single Qing bannermen crossed Shanhai pass in 1644. So no, 100,000 bannermen did not conquer 100 million people.

Most Eight Bannermen themselves were Han by that time, 75% of Eight banners were Han bannermen in 1648. The ratio was reduced later in the late 18th century as many Han bannermen in provincial garrisons like Zhenjiang and Zhapu were removed from the Eight banner rolls, so the percentage decreased.

Also, even with the Han majority Qing army in 1644, the Qing would never have taken over if not for Li Zicheng and Zhang Xianzhong and the Great plague destryoing the Ming military across northern China and SIchuan.

The Qing had to rely both on Han defector generals who were given Manchu princesses as wives AND the internal Han rebellions and plagues combined.

Han civilian populaiton recovered by the 18th century, while Manchu banner population grew more slowly, the ratio of Manchus to Han in general in 1644 was higher than in 1911, because Han died from the plague and rebellions of Li and Zhang before 1644

But Manchus were vulnerable to small pox which left Manchu babies dead or left Manchu men sterile like George Washingtong. Shunzhi emperor died from smallpox and Kangxi had to inoculate Aisin Gioro members against the disease.

Aisin Gioro suffered from high infant mortaility and infertility since there were only 29,000 Aisin Gioro in 1912 while there were nearly or over 200,000 Zhu Ming imperial family members at the end of the Ming, and they both ruled for similar amounts of time.

That reflected on the Manchu population in general, many Manchu men were sterile due to smallpox or their sons died early, so they were forced to adopt Han boys from Han bondservant families or Han bannermen, and pretend they were their own sons, since once the Manchu men got too old to serve, they needed sons to serve in designated soldier positions at Banner garrisons to rely on their salaries when they retired.

Each banner quarter had a designated number of soldier slots, and Manchu bannermen needed sons to get in those positions to receive pay. the Qing emperors repeatedly tried to warn them against adopting Han sons to no avail, as Manchu men continued adopting Han boys and falsely passing them off as Manchu.

Adopting other Manchu boys wouldn't work, because their own fathers wouldn't give up their own sources of revenue in retirement and Manchus in general were more sterile and infertile than Han.

this was the opposite of the problem Mongols in the Yuan dynasty faced, while the Qing paying banner soldiers saalaries incentivised Manchu men to adopt Han sons, the opposite happened in the Yuan where the Yuan neglected to pay Mongol soldiers salaries. 

The Mongol soldiers were forced to sell their daughters and sons as slaves to Huihui and Han families to survive, the Mongol children were not adopted but just taken as slaves.

It is more complex than that. On the whole, the gentry escaped much more unscathed than the common folk, though the degree varies wildly from province to province. Beizhili gentry never suffered too much to the Shun because their occupation was too short, and they generally defected to them as fast as they could. They then defected to the Qing inmediately and turned into the main financial support of the conquests. The Shandong gentry opposed the Qing more vigorously with their private armies, but the Jiangnan elites on the contrary defected more or less wholesale. There were episodes of gentry-led resistance, but on the whole the Jiangnan gentry, who were one of the main causes of the fall of the Ming, passed the transition well (compared to other areas). Sichuan elites were more affected by all the chaos, but the whole province was devastated by it since 1644. Fujian merchants were indeed hit hard by the Qing measures to counter the Zheng clan, who monopolised the maritime frontier, but again it is hard to argue that all the common folk who were forced to relocate behind the Qing fortified inland line suffered less than the inland Fujian gentry.

And while the imperial family was a major financial burden for the Ming, the massive tax dodging was by far a worse problem, especially because in addition to that they filled the ranks of the bureaucracy and systematically destroyed state control over the increasingly more powerful land-holdings of their fellow gentry.

The Manchus had superior iron armor and weapons to the Ming, not equal, and it had nothing to do with Han Chinese artisans. The Manchus themselves simply made better irons. This is a Ming report: "At the present the slaves won and we lost greatly for three reasons....it is the armor, weapons, and the horses on march...according to Korean reports, the slave camps in the northern gate is where the iron smiths live. They make iron specifically. I also heard that their iron smiths (residence) extent for several li...It is said that the armours, masks and armguards used by enemy troops are made of elite iron, and their horses wear the same. That's why during their battle with Joseon encampment, enemy infantry dashed forward and quickly dismantled the chevaux de frise. While Joseon troops are armed with guns (arquebus) and arrows (bow), they could do nothing. This was caused by the durable armour. "

The Qing did not have bulletproof armour. Corrupt gunpowder suppliers or incompetent soldiers mixing their own gunpowder could cause bullets to not penetrate iron armour.

Shoot an arquebus with pure blackpowder against a Qing armour set and see if its "bulletproof".

Corrupt officials buying poor quality blackpowder or mixing non-functioning ingredients into the powder could submit false reports claiming the enemy had magic bulletproof armour.

British accounts of poor Qing gunpowder production in the 18th and 19th centuries, could be explained by corrupt or incompetent soldiers looking to cut corners, even though the full purification process and proper proportions were known in China since the Ming, that didn't mean soldiers wouldn't cut corners, which is how the British could mistakenly claim Chinese had no idea of corning, purification or the proper ratio of the three ingredients. Dr. Gillan in the MacCartney mission mistakenly claimed Chinese had no idea how to purify it just based on looking at one Qing soldier doing it even though Ming books like Tiangong Kaiwu tell you how to purify it and other Ming books have the correct ratios.

Shooting stones or shot instead of solid lead or iron bullets in arquebuses could also explain a failure to penetrate armour.

The account of Ming bulletproof armour in Taiwan is also a mistake, the Dutch word referred to them being unable to be penetrated by a bladed weapon.

Heavy paper armour is more bulletproof than any wearable amount of iron lamellar armour regardless of quality.

People need to stop presenting the Qing as some regime which stands out in banning weapons because they are Manchu, for its simply not true.
Private crossbows were banned since the Song dynasty. The Ming tried to implement the ban of firearms as well and punished those who had it either with caning or banishment as recorded in the Ming Code: 凡民间私有人马甲、傍牌、火筒、火炮、旗纛、号带之类应禁军器者，如果私自持有，一件杖八十，每一件加一等。私自制造并私自持有则罪再加一等，杖一百流三千里。非全成者并勿论，许令纳官。
In contrast, the early Qing actually lifted the ban on firearms because it worried the people cannot defend themselves against pirates: 近闻民无兵器，不能御侮，贼反得利，良民受其荼毒。今思炮与甲胄两者原非民间宜有，仍照旧严禁。其三眼枪、鸟枪、弓箭刀、枪马匹等项，悉听民间存留，不得禁止。
Kangxi explicitly stated that private firearms are no threat to the Qing regime, and turned down a proposal to ban firearms, stating that a moral regime was more important than a ban on firearms: 朕思治天下之道、在政事之得失、于火器何与。He merely restricted each family to own one 50 CM arquebus.
By the late Qing this ban was loosened considerably, and we hear private firearms being rather common among the Tuan Lian militia. In fact by the late 19th century, many local governors forcibly required locals to own guns and the government even distributed firearms to train the locals as militia (this is even more true of merchant ships).

The Jiangnan and Fujian arsenals were producing Mausers by the 1880s and their quality were for a time, better than the arsenals of Meiji Japan, so its ridiculous to attribute this to some ethnic conflict. That the Qing did not manage their explosives well only pertained to naval ordnance and was not a result of its arsenal quality.

Retard, I already said Lanzhou arsenal managed to produce weapons that worked unlike the Eight banners in Beijing, because the Lanzhou arsenal, Fujian and Jiangnan arsenals hired Han civilian craftsmen who worked in foreign concessions in Shanghai and Hong Kong and were familiar with modern machinery.

The Tenacious Army did not use naval ordnance yet its ordnance were solid shot and did not explode.

The Qing restricted firearms by size, amount and bore. Qing officials in Guangdong confiscated large calibre cannons and extra muskets, and returned the smaller cannons and smaller muskets to  civilians. Anti-Qing pirates used large calibre cannons.

The Sui dynasty itself boasted it's paternal lineage was Han Chinese from the Hongnong Yang clan (tracing descent to the Zhou dynasty) while only it's maternal linage was Xianbei from the Dugu clan. The Xianbei started as vassals of Han Chinese emperors of the Western Jin and Eastern Jin, the Xianbei Tuoba received the vassal title Duke of Dai, the Murong received the vassal title Duke of Liaodong, the Duan received the vassal title Duke of Liaoxi.

Murong Xianbei of Former Yan sacked the Goguryeo capital of Hwando in 341 and captured the Goguryeo Queen mother and the Han Chinese state of Cao Wei sacked Goguryeo's capital Hwando earlier. The Han dynasty conquered Gojoseon (itself ruled by a Han Chinese family founded by Wei Man) and set up the Four Commanderies to rule in the Korean peninsula. China doesn't need to claim Goguryeo to show military dominance over Korea, it already conquered Gojoseon and the Xianbei and Cao Wei both sacked Goguryeo's capital twice and Goguryeo only managed to get the four commanderies like Lelang in Pyongyang in 313 after internal barbarian rebellions against the Chinese Western Jin dynasty.

The Xianbei, Mongols, Han Chinese, Manchus all committed mass rape in Korea during their wars and invasions of the Korean peninsula.

Aisin Gioro led Qing troops, both Manchu bannermen, Mongol bannermen and Han bannermen committed mass rape against Korean women during the 1636 Qing invasion of Joseon Korea after Japan did the same to Korean women in the Imjin war and sent some Korean girls to Portuguese in Macau. Japanese killed 1 million Korean civilians during the Imjin war and committed mass rape just like Qing troops did to Korea in 1627 and 1636. Koreans even made a fantasy movie, war of the Arrows about Koreans getting revenge on Manchus for mass rape of Korean women.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=p3yW5MdzKnUC&pg=PA114

Kublai Khan gave one of his daughters in marriage to Han Chinese former Southern Song Emperor Gong (Zhao Xian) who he made Duke of Ying.

The Mongol Borjigin Prince of Liang Balaswarmi in Yunnan gave his daughter off in marriage to Han Chinese Prince Duan Gong of Dali.

The Mongol Borjigins married their daughters off to other vassal kings like the kings of Cilician Armenia, the king of Georgia and King of Qocho in Xinjiang.

Kublai Khan specifically told the Korean king he was the lowest ranking vassal below the King of Qocho.

You posted multiple unsourced urban legend lies from various forums and blogs, none of which are found in primary sources from the Yuan dynasty or even wild history (unofficial accounts) from the Yuan and Ming. The Mongol prima noctae was literally made up on forums by people who hate China like Korean nationalists, there isn't a single citation from texts like Yuan Shi.

The Yuan dynasty had entire contingents of Han Chinese soldiers and the Mongol empire before then had Han Chinese tumens led by Han generals like Shi Tianze. Its also impossible to enforce such a policy in a medieval society. Find one primary source or history book that mentions these.

Mongols didn't even have enough Mongols to garrison China which is why they relied on the Semu Tammachi army and Han tumens. There were no Mongol troops on entire provinces of China, Fujian only had Han soldiers and Semu soldiers. In Hubei the Mongols had to levy an entire army of Cuan-Bo troops from the Dali kingdom in Yunnan against southern Song. The battle of Yamen was entirely between Han troops on the Yuan side and Han troops on the Southern Song side. Mongols could not practice prima noctae in China but they could in Korea.

You can't quote a single primary source like the History of Yuan for any of these statements about Mongols practicing primae nocta in China, you can only find this trash on Korean naver blogs with absolutely no citations. Find one Yuan primary source or modern historian who says these are true that Mongols practiced prima noctae rape in China (they practiced it in Korea)

The Mongols forced Korea to give a tribute of over 500,000 Korean girls and Korean eunuchs and distributed Korean concubines to northern Han Chinese officers like Shi Tianze, Shi Tianlin, Semu Hui Muslims like Abu Ali (mentioned in Goryeo Sa) and to southern Song Han Chinese soldiers who defected to the Yuan.

Mongols had Han Chinese officers like Shi Bingzhi and his son Shi Tianze and his sons who were married to Mongol women and Jurchen women. Shi Bingzhi had a Jurchen wife, his son Shi Tianlin had Jurchen wives, Shi Tianze's son Shi Gang had a Mongol Kerait wife and one of Shi Tianze's other sons was married to a Mongol woman, a daughter of Mongol official Menggu Baer.

In Korea itself, Han Chinese from the Kong family and Semu Hui officials like Jang Samga married Korean women and founded new clans like Deoksu Jang clan and the Korean courtier Pa-gyu claimed that pure Koreans were going to go extinct and tried to force every Korean woman into polygamous marriages with korean men to stop this from happening but failed.

Unlike your naver fantasies, the marriages of Korean womento Yuan Hui Semu and Han officials is actually documented in History of Yuan and other primary sources and Goryeo Sa mentions Korean women marrying Hui.

You remind me of other Korean fantasies from naver like ignoring Korean girls during the Imjin war who got sold to Portuguese in Macau and claiming Portuguese conquered Macau and trafficked Chinese (only Tanka were sold there, and Macau was rented to the Portuguese in exchange for silver after Portugal was crushed in battle twice at Tunmen and Shancaowan.

What's next, Korean nationalists claiming all American rape in Korea during the Korean war was actually against Chinese.

Mongols gave tons of Korean girls as concubines to Muslim Hui Semu tammachi army officers and officials and Han Chinese officers in officials, both in China and Korea.

https://dokumen.pub/empires-twilight-northeast-asia-under-the-mongols-1nbsped-0674036085-9780674036086.html

Empire's Twilight. Northeast Asia under the Mongols [1 ed.] 0674036085, 9780674036086 - DOKUMEN.PUB

https://vdoc.pub/documents/empires-twilight-northeast-asia-under-the-mongols-2i7l4ccfsq10

Empire's Twilight. Northeast Asia Under The Mongols [PDF] [2i7l4ccfsq10]

The empire facilitated the spread of regional fashions. Early in the thirteenth century, at least one son and several wives (both Jurchen and Mongol) of the prominent Mongol general Muqali wore turbans and other clothes from West Asia. The famous jisün robes often worn at grand banquets in the Mongol capitals, which fascinated observers like Marco Polo, probably originated in West Asia.177 During the thirteenth and early fourteenth centuries, Koryŏ clothing styles became fashionable in many elite circles in Daidu.178 Koryŏ women were inseparable from the popularity of things Korean. The first waves of Koryŏ women into the Mongol empire arrived as captives seized during the bloody fighting of the mid-thirteenth century. These women were variously used as slaves, married to recently surrendered Southern Song soldiers, or distributed as war booty to Mongol warriors. Late in the thirteenth century, Qubilai and other Mongol aristocrats began to demand women from elite Koryŏ families as wives and consorts. Despite initial efforts to avoid these demands, the Korean government eventually responded by establishing government bureaus to organize and control the flow of Koryŏ women to the Mongol empire. What had begun as the seizure of women as war booty evolved into a complex system of formal tribute between the ruling houses of Koryŏ and the Mongol empire. Yuan envoys regularly traveled to Koryŏ to secure women on behalf of the emperor, who often redistributed them as gifts to leading ministers. Yuan envoys and Yuan officials stationed in Koryŏ also requested Koryŏ brides for themselves.179 The number of Koryŏ women in Daidu increased steadily over the late thirteenth and first half of the fourteenth centuries. Nearly 1,500 Koryŏ tribute women are noted in official Yuan and Koryŏ court annals. The actual number of women was certainly much higher since elite Koryŏ women nearly always traveled with their own maids and servants. Lesser-known women were not deemed sufficiently significant to merit mention in official records.180 Many Koreans married their womenfolk to members of the Yuan elite as a way to secure official posts and advance family interests. Mongolian, Muslim, and Uyghur elites appreciated Koryŏ beauties, and the acquisition of Korean concubines became something of a fad.181 As one fourteenth-century Chinese observer familiar with the court in Daidu observed: Among prominent officials and influential people in the capital city, acquisition of a Koryŏ woman has become de rigueur for one to be considered a leading light. The Koryŏ women are amiable and yielding; they excel in serving [their lords] to such a degree that they often win [his] favor [away from other women]. Since the Zhizheng reign period, most of the palace stewards and attendants in the imperial palace are Koryŏ women. For this reason, everywhere clothes, shoes, hats, and utensils all follow the Korean style.182 京師達官貴人必得高麗女然後為名家。高麗婉媚善事人至則多奪寵。 自至正以來宮中給事使令大半為高麗女。以故四方衣服鞋帽器物皆依 高麗樣子。

https://en.unesco.org/silkroad/content/did-you-know-sayyid-bin-abu-ali-true-representative-intercultural-relations-along-maritime

Did you know?: Sayyid Bin Abu Ali, a True Representative of Intercultural Relations along the Maritime Silk Roads | Silk Roads Programme
https://en.unesco.org/silkroad/knowledge-bank/inscription-memory-sayyid-bin-abu-ali

An Inscription in Memory of Sayyid Bin Abu Ali | Silk Roads Programme

The relations between China and Oman in the eleventh to fifteenth centuries can be witnessed in the existence of Omani names in Chinese literature from this époque. Sayyid Bin Abu Ali was an Omani who appears to have lived in China in the thirteenth century, marrying a Korean lady and dying in Beijing in 1299. His life is commemorated in an inscription, an important trace of the international mobility that was possible across Central Asia in this period.

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/52127/52127-h/52127-h.htm

The History of Korea, by Homer B. Hulbert

An amusing incident is reported as having occurred about this time. A courtier named Pa-gyu observed to the king, “The male population of the country has been decimated but there are still plenty of women. For this reason it is that the Mongols take so many of them. There is danger that the pure Koryŭ stock will become vitiated by the intermixture of wild blood. The king should let each man take several wives and should remove the restrictions under which the sons of concubines labor.” When the news of this came to the ears of the women they were up in arms, as least the married portion; and each one read to her spouse such a lecture that the subject was soon dropped as being too warm to handle. When the king passed through the streets with Pa-gyu in his retinue the women would point to the latter and say “There goes the man who would make concubines of us all.”

https://www.islamawareness.net/Asia/KoreaSouth/ks_article101.pdf

With no mention of their ethnicity or place of their ancestral origin, hoehoe in this article means Muslims of any origin settled in Korea. The degree of their settlement and the extent of theiracculturation would depend on each individual case. In cases of completely voluntary integration,some hoehoe were allowed to take local surnames, marrying Korean women, and eventually beingprogenitors of certain clans, which survive to this day.

https://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/20/arts/20iht-MELIK20.html

Groundbreaking Picture of China (Published 2010)

I forgot to mention, Koreans were in the literal 3rd class in the Mongol empire. Koreans put Mongols as third class along with northern Han, Jurchens and Khitan so every law that applied to northern Han applied to Koreans as well.

Since according to you 3rd and 4th class people were supposedly treated like slaves then Koreans were treated like slaves by the Mongols.

Kublai Khan gave Korean women to Han Chinese Southern Song defecting soldiers at the beginning of the Yuan.

Korean sources like Goryeosa 高麗史 and Dongguk Tonggam 東國通鑑 mentioned the Mongols distributing Korean women as wives to their underlings, Kuiblai Khan gave the daughter of Korean official Chae Ingyu first to a Tibetan named Sangha and then to a Muslim Abu Ali from southern India.

Kublai Khan was at the beginning of the Yuan dynasty and he handed out Korean women to the Indian Muslim exile 孛哈里.

Also from Empire's Twilight: Northeast Asia Under the Mongols, p. 52

The first waves of Koryo women into the Mongol empire arrived as captives seized during the bloody fighting of the mid-thirteenth century. These women were variously used as slaves, married to recently surrendered Southern Song soldiers, or distributed as war booty to Mongol warriors.

Marriage as Political Strategy and Cultural Expression: Mongolian Royal Marriages from World Empire to Yuan Dynasty, p. 194

It is true that in the Yuan dynasty, Korean women were famed for their gentleness and loveliness, and many officials took Korean women as wives, concubines, or maidservants, and it is also true that the Yuan court also issued many imperial edicts tot he Koryŏ court, ordering them to present young women to the Yuan imperial court. Many Korean officials also presented women to the Yuan of their own accord. This traffic in women happened every year according to the Korean history Yu Kye.

54 "[Korea] did this (presenting virgins and eunuchs to the Yuan court) every year either in response to an imperial decree or on a voluntary basis." See Yu Kye (1607-1664): Yosa chegang

the four class system granted privileges like reservations in the imperial exams and official positions.

It did not grant any untouchable status or forbid men from the lower class from marrying women of the upper ones.

Northern Han Chinese generals like Shi Tianze's son Shi Gang (third class) married Mongol Kerait women (first class). The Mongol official Menggu Baer (Meng-ku Pa-erh) married his daughter off to another one of Shi Tianze's sons.

Kublai Khan married his own daughter (1st class) off to Han Chinese Southern Song Emperor Gong, Zhao Xian (fourth class)

Kublai Khan married off tons of Korean women (third class) to southern Song Han Chinese soldiers (fourth class) who defected to the Yuan

Han Chinese military judge Shi Tianlin had a Korean concubine surnamed Kim/Jin and he won a case against a Semu Hui Muslim official Mubarak in the Yuan.

Southern Han Chinese Su Tangshe (fourth class) married a Muslim Semu woman from the family of Pu Shougeng when the Semu Muslims were at the height of influence in Quanzhou just before the Yuan emperors revoked every single Muslim Semu privileged and had Han Chinese general Chen Youding butcher the Muslim Semu in the Ispah rebellion. Chen Youding then ruled Fujian as his private fief under the Yuan.

Li Guangqi also mentioned Han Chinese men marrying Semu women in Quanzhou. Han men married Semu women for their connections in the administration.

Former Southern Song officials entered the Yuan censorate due to quotas against them and then regained control as they convinced the Yuan emperors to strip power and privileges from Muslim Semu like their qadis and banned Islamic cousin marriage practices.

The Mongols transferred Han Chinese west to Muslim Central Asia and Baghdad and Siberia as officials and military officers after they helped rape and sack Baghdad and conquering Central Asia. Muslims in Bukhara and Samarqand were not allowed to manage their own fields without Han Chinese supervisors and Chagatai Khan banned halal slaughter and circumcision.

Han Chinese like Shi Tianlin went with Batu Khan in the golden horde to conquering the Kipchak cumin steppe and Eastern Europe.

The four class system in Yuan China was not ethnic based but based on either you were were subject of a state that surrendered faster.

Former subjects of the Jin dynasty (Jurchens, Khitan, Northern Han Chinese) subjects of Goryeo (Koreans) and western Xia (Tanguts) and Kingdom of Dali (Bai, Yi, Cong) were third class while subjects of southern Song (southern Han Chinese, Zhuang, She, Miao) were fourth class for being the last to surrender.

Kublai even told the Korean King that Korea was ranked lower than Qocho for surrendering later.

Korean women were forced to become concubines of Han Chinese men and Semu Hui men under the Mongols but Han women were never given to Korean men by the Mongols.

Mongols stripped privileges of Muslim Semu. Only Christians retained it

Yuan dynasty went full neo-Confucian traditionalist towards the end, destroying the Semu system and Han Chinese officers in the Yuan military like Chen Youding genocided Semu people in Fujian

Mongols exchanged populations at the beginning. Han Chinese soldiers, officers and officials were sent to Central Asia (Chagatai Khanate) and Xinjiang like Beshbaliq (Jimsar County), Samarkand and Bukhara to rule Central Asian Muslims and Yenisei, Tanna Tuva while the Yuan sent Central Asian Muslims east to Korea and China as soldiers and officials

The Chagatai Khanate was extremely anti Muslim and passed anti-Muslim laws discriminating against them while favouring Han Chinese officials over them while victims versa in the Yuan, the Central Asians became the Semu class

But the Chagatai and Yuan both ended their policies in the 14th century. The Chagatai converted to Islam while the Yuan ended all Semu Central Asian Muslim privileges starting from the 1320s to the 1360s, stripping them of pensions, titles and stripping them of even their religious rights and favoured Han Chinese officers like Chen Youding to genocide the Semu Muslims when the Muslims revolted against the Yuan in the 1350s Ispah rebellion. The Yuan passed laws enforcing Confucianism.

Chen Youding fought as a Yuan loyalist against the Ming. The Ming defeated him and took over Fujian which Chen Youding had cleared of hundreds of thousands or even millions of Semu Central Asians butchered in the Ispah rebellion in the 1350s-1360s.

The Ming is the sole reason Hui people still exist in China. The Yuan dynasty was helping genocide their Muslim Semu class and was reimposing full scale Han rule all over at the end, there would only be Christian Semu, Mongols and Han in the Yuan lands

The Yuan was overthrown after multiple natural disasters and plagues in China, not because of anti-Han discrimination

Entire provinces of China had no Mongol soldiers.

The only non-Han (whether soldiers, merchants or officials) in Fujian in the first half of the Yuan were Semu, and starting in the 1320s the Mongols turned against the Semu Muslims and passed laws discriminating against them and banning their religious practices and stripping them of all privileges, only Christian Semu retained privileges. There were also Han soldiers and officers all over China and in Xinjiang and Siberia.

The Yuan emperor had Han Chinese general Chen Youding crush the Muslim Semu Ispah rebellion in Quanzhou and then Chen Youding ruled the entire Fujian as his personal warlord fief with Han soldiers. There were zero Mongol soldiers or officials with him while he ruled Fujian.

Chen Youding kept Fujian as a Yuan loyalist holdout against the Ming which surrounded Fujian on land and could only communicate with Khanbaliq/Beijing by sea. The Ming conquest of Fujian was entirely Han on Han fighting with zero Mongols.

Fujian was ruled entirely by Han as a warlord fiefdom in the last decades of the Yuan dynasty.

The Tusi chiefdoms of Guizhou also had no Mongols, like the chiefdom of Bozhou had zero Mongol soliders or officials and the Tusi were left alone.

Even before the Yuan passed laws against Muslim Semu, Han men in Fujian were allowed to marry Semu women like Su Tangshe and his sons marrying women from the Semu family of Pu Shougeng.

Kublai Khan had to offer Korean women as wives to southern Song Han soldiers to defect to the Yuan and open up military colonies (tuntian). Kublai Khan's own bodyguards were Christian Alans and Kipchak (Qipchaq) Tengrists, not Mongols.

The only area with some Mongols was Yunnan where their descendants are the Khatso who mixed with Yi people.

Mongols did not even have enough Mongols willing to move into China and garrison it.

mongols relied on non-Mongol offiers and soldiers for the majority of their military garrisons in non-Mongol regions. They shifted different ethnic soldiers to each other's countries

Han Chinese generals and soldiers were shifted west by the Mongol empire to be stationed in Central Asia in Uyghur lands in Xinjiang, in Bukhara and Samarqand in Uzbekistan and Baghdad in Iraq, while Central Asian Muslim generals and soldiers were in turn shifted east to be stationed in China and Korea, so that the soldiers in each area would not conspire with he local populations against Mongols.

Mongols forced Korea to provide hundreds of thousands of virgin Korean girls and Korean boy eunuchs, and distrubited the Korean girls as gifts to their Central Asian Muslim and Han Chinese soldiers.

The bulk of Mongols stayed as nomads in Mongolia and did not move into Han provinces. That's why the last Yuan emperor fled to the steppes of Mongolia and continued reigning in Mongolia as the northern Yuan dynasty. The Mongols never integrated into the Han population.

today in China, the descendants of those Mongol empire and Yuan Central Asian garrisons and Korean women are the Hui Muslims. Despite speaking Chinese now and practicing similar culture now, they still identify as an entirely separate ethnicty from Han because of their paternal lineage, they trace their ancestry to Central Asian Muslims and identify as Hui, not as Korean or Han. There are 8.61 million Hui in China. The Salars are also descendants of Central Asian Muslim garrison under Mongol empire in China except their ancestors married Tibetan women so their culture is tinged with Tibetan but they never identify as Tibetan because of their paternal lineage.

whate is copy pasting Korean nationalist alternate history fanfiction about the four class Semu system.

There were four classes- 1. Mongols

2. Semu HuiHui Tammarchi army officers and officials (Hui Muslims of Central Asian and other origin, Hui Christians like Alan Asud, Hui Jews, Buddhist Hui Old Uyghurs of Qocho),

3. northern Han Chinese, Jurchens, Khitan and Koreans (former Jin, Goryeo and Dali kingdom subjects)

4. southern Han Chinese, southern minorities (former southern Song subjects)

As said already, the Mongol four class system did NOT ban intermarriage of men from the lower classes to the higher classes (but there are zero cases of Korean men marrying Semu Hui women or Han women in the Yuan).

Korean women were married to southern Han Chinese southern Song soldiers, northern Han Chinese like Shi Gang married Mongol women, southern Han Chinese Su Tangshe married a Semu Hui woman from Pu Shougeng's family.

It did not allow people of the upper Mongol and Semu classes to kill members of the lower classes (by the way, if such a law existed it would also have applied in Korea which was Zhengdong province of the Yuan and had Mongol Darugachis and Hui Semu officials stationed there as well)

If such a law existed against the third and fourth classes, Koreans were in the third class and would have been treated like "niggers" and killed at will by Semu Hui and Mongol officials.

The four class system did not give legal immunity to upper classes. northern Han Chinese military judge Shi Tianlin won a case against Semu Hui Muslim official Mubarak even though he was second class in a land dispute.

The four class position only gave some privileges like quotas to the upper classes, Mongols and Semu would have extra imperial exam slots and a number of official positions would be reserved for them, which is why southern Han Chinese officials chose to work in the censorate instead at the beginning of the Yuan.

besides the four class system not having the rules whale made up (upper classes can murder lower classes at will), the Mongols literally jettisoned the entire system in the 1320s in the second half of the Yuan dynasty.

Starting from the 1320s the Mongol emperor declared neo-Confucianism as the state ideology on advice of southern Han Chinese censors who regained power, and stripped privileges from the Semu Hui Muslims and Semu Hui Jews, abolishing their religious privileges like maintaining a qadi and headman and passing laws that directly attacked their religions, banning Islamic parallel cousin marriage, circumcision etc.

The Semu Hui Muslims revolted in Quanzhou against Mongol rule in the Ispah rebellion. the Mongols sent Han Chinese general Chen Youding to massacre the Semu Hui Muslim ispah rebels and then Han warlord Chen Youding ruled the entire Fujian province as his personal fiefdom with Han soldiers under the late Yuan with approval of the Yuan emperor, with no Mongol officials or soldiers supervising him.

That's why Semu Hui Muslims joined Zhu yuanzhang's rebellion against the Yuan since the Mongols were massacring's Muslims and took away every single privilege.

The Yuan literally wiped out the Muslim population of Quanzhou as well in the Ispah rebellion after stripping Muslim Semu of their rights.

Mongols raped Jurchen women while Han officers married Mongol women and Korean girls given to them by Mongols.

whale thinks that Koreans were exempt from the four class system (they were grouped right with northern Han under Mongol rule and would have been treated like slaves as well by Semu Hui and Mongols if everything he said was true)

whale thinks that the four class system lasted in the entire Yuan (the Mongols abolished it after southern Han former southern Song officials took over the censorate)

whale is also lying about the Qing system as well.

The Qing didn't have a four class system unlike the Yuan dynasty/Mongol empire, but they had the Eight Banner system and different territories with different privileges.

The Eight Banner system was divided into Manchu Eight banners, Mongol Eight Banners, and Han Eight banners, and then bondservant/booi aha/baoyi/sinjeku slave companies attached to each banner, the only Koreans in them were part of the slave companies from captives Manchus took in wars with Korea like Imperial Noble Consort Shujia who was a concubine of a Qing emperor.

The Mongol civilians in Inner Mongolia and Outer Mongolia were NOT in the Mongol Eight Banner system. The "banners" in Inner Mongolia were territorial administrative units with territorial names like provinces, and were not part of the Mongol Eight banners.

Uyghurs and Tibetans weren't in the Eight banner system either.

The regular Eight Banner companies were privileged in order of Manchu, Mongol Eight Banners, and Han Eight Banners.

After that of all the non-Eight banner civilians, Han civilians had the most privileges over Mongol civilians, Tibetan civilians and Uyghur civilians.

Mongol civilians in Inner Mongolia and Outer Mongolia were subjected to brutal apartheid rules by Manchus unlike the Eight Banner Mongols. Mongol civilians were banned from travelling outside their own leagues and banner administrative units and from the Qing border as well as over the great wall to Han provinces, or the Manchu border guards at the Karun stations on league borders would confiscate all their property and enslave them.

Han Chinese civilians were not forbidden from going to other Han provinces or to Dzungaria, and Han Chinese who crossed over to forbidden areas (like over the great wall to Inner Mongolia or the willow palisade) were not punished with enslavement but just by being beaten several times with a cane.

Uradyn E. Bulag's chapter in "Frontier Encounters" mentions the brutal apartheid system civilian Mongols faced.

Uyghurs and Tibetans were also forbidden from crossing into Han provinces (but they could move across their own administrative units unlike Mongol civilians who faced the worst apartheid restrictions in the Qing.)

Uyghurs, Tibetans and Mongol civilians were never recruited into the Qing national army, they only served as soldiers in their own areas and were not stationed in Han provinces in permanent garrisons.

Non-Banner Han Chinese soldiers and military officers were stationed in Lubu in Lhasa, Tibet, in garrisons around Uyghur cities like Kashgar, and they took Tibetan women as concubines and Uyghur women as temporary wives (Manchu bannermen with them also took Tibetan wives and Uyghur wives) and abandoned the half breed children behind in Lubu, Kashgar etc.

Han Chinese bannermen were stationed in Hohhot in Inner Mongolia, and Han Chinese civilians often migrated into Inner Mongolia flaunting the law and married Mongol civilian women and Qing officials did nothing to punish them.


https://search.proquest.com/openview/5c6d78516e80433b02e24bbac4409096/1.pdf?pq-origsite=gscholar&cbl=18750&diss=y

Han Chinese civilians alone were above Uyghurs, Tibetans and Mongol civilians in the Qing.

99% of Mongols in the Qing were Mongol civilians, only 1% of Mongols were Mongol Eight bannermen and had the Eight banner privileges.

Koreans in the Qing were in slave companies serving the Eight Banners.

Manchu soldiers mass raped Korean girls, they also mass raped Uyghur women when the Qing occupied Xinjiang as well. Xianbei, Mongols, Manchus, Japanese and Han Chinese all committed mass rape during their invasions of the Korean peninsula and the Japanese sold Korean girls to Portuguese slave traders.

Kublai Khan gave Korean women to Omani merchants. Zero Han women were handed out to foreigner merchants.

https://en.unesco.org/silkroad/knowledge-bank/inscription-memory-sayyid-bin-abu-ali

An Inscription in Memory of Sayyid Bin Abu Ali | Silk Roads Programme

An Inscription in Memory of Sayyid Bin Abu Ali

The relations between China and Oman in the eleventh to fifteenth centuries can be witnessed in the existence of Omani names in Chinese literature from this époque. Sayyid Bin Abu Ali was an Omani who appears to have lived in China in the thirteenth century, marrying a Korean lady and dying in Beijing in 1299. His life is commemorated in an inscription, an important trace of the international mobility that was possible across Central Asia in this period.

https://en.unesco.org/silkroad/sites/default/files/knowledge-bank-article/an%20inscription%20in%20memory%20of%20sayyid%20bin%20abu%20ali.pdf

https://en.unesco.org/silkroad/content/did-you-know-sayyid-bin-abu-ali-true-representative-intercultural-relations-along-maritime

Did you know?: Sayyid Bin Abu Ali, a True Representative of Intercultural Relations along the Maritime Silk Roads | Silk Roads Programme

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=nVVoRKSZxagC&pg=PA122&lpg=PA122&dq=propose+to+reexamine+an+inscription+of+the+Mongol-.+Yuan+period+relating+to+an+Omani+in+China,+and+to+give+a&source=bl&ots=eej3OhzrJv&sig=ACfU3U2QR9-EeZNG3VNgd_UahBODdnGKNA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiImtW3_O71AhUEjIkEHWCsC88Q6AF6BAgtEAI#v=onepage&q=propose%20to%20reexamine%20an%20inscription%20of%20the%20Mongol-.%20Yuan%20period%20relating%20to%20an%20Omani%20in%20China%2C%20and%20to%20give%20a&f=false

The Silk Roads
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=zRPbecWnkoIC&pg=PA123&lpg=PA123&dq=%22bo+ha+li%22+%22to+a+korean+girl%22&

The Silk Roads;

The Emperor ( namely Yuan Cheng Zhong ] married him to a Korean girl . ... identified Bu A Li ( Abu'Ali ) of Yuan Shi with Bo Ha Li of the Korean source .

I'm talking about Tibetans of Lhasa in Ü-Tsang, not the Tibetans living in the Tusi in Kham, Amdo (Qinghai) and Gansu (Chinese equivalent of princely states).

There was a Han majority Tusi called Kokang on the border of Yunnan ruled by the Han Yang family, it has the same rules as the Tibetan Tusi across Gansu and Amdo and Kham, it was ruled by a Han family who had hereditary rule. And the Ming dynasty was the one who started having Tibetan Tusi kingdoms in Gansu, the Qing inherited the ones in Gansu like Chone from the Ming. Tusi people were not governed directly by Qing officials and no one was inspecting them for haircuts.

Han Green standard army soldiers (they are called civilians because they are not bannermen, I don't mean civilian as in non-military personnel) were stationed in Lhasa with Manchu bannermen. The people in the Lubu section of Lhasa claim descent from Green Standard army soldiers and Tibetan women.

A Han Green Standard Army general named Yue Zhongqi (descendant of Yue Fei) led the Qing army of Green Standard Army soldiers and Manchu bannermen into Lhasa in 1720 against the Dzungars. He was the first Qing general to enter Lhasa.

Also upon Han general Yue Zhongqi's request, the Qing Yongzheng emperor split the Tibetan province of Kham in two, and gave the eastern part of Kham to the Han province of Sichuan while giving the western part of Kham to Ü-Tsang. The whole reason eastern Kham is part of Sichuan is because of general Yue Zhongqi telling the Yongzheng emperor do do it. The Republic of China from 1912-1949 on paper recreated Kham province as Xikang but on the ground Sichuan warlords continued ruling eastern Kham and the Communists reverted it back to the Qing borders on paper (which was also the reality on the ground).

Manchu bannermen and Mongol banner generals brutally put down the Tibetan rebellion in Lhasa in 1727-1728, executing the Tibetan rebel leaders by slow slicing and removed the Dalai Lama from power. The Qing then placed the Tibetan Pholha family as hereditary princes in Lhasa. The Qing also executed the children of the rebels.

In 1750-1751 the Pholha family was caught plotting a rebellion against the Qing and again the Manchu and Mongol banner generals brutally put down the rebellion and again executed the Tibetan rebel leaders by slow slicing and removed the Pholha family from power and placed the Dalai Lama back in power.

The Manchus forced multiple non-Han ethnic groups to shave, they forced their fellow Nanai who are Tungusic brethren to shave their foreheads as well.

Salar Muslims lived in Tusi in Qinghai during the Ming and Qing. Salars already shaved their entire heads bald and there was nothing for them to cut off further, but if they went out of their Tusi for business they wore fake wigs with a queue style braid to blend in. Salars according to their tradition and Amdo Tibetan tradition are descended from Turkmen men marrying Amdo Tibetan women which is why Amdo Tibetans refer to Salars as their maternal uncles. The Salars were granted the surnames Han and Ma by the first Ming emperor and settled in eastern Amdo to become Tusi under the Ming along with the Tibetans on the edge of Amdo and Gansu.

Uyghur Muslim men also shaved their heads entirely during the Qing as part of their traditional hairstyle, the Qing couldn't implement a shaving order because their heads were already bald. If they wanted to blend in they had to wear wigs like many begs did.

The Dalai Lama were put into power by Khoshut Oirat invaders anyway after they toppled the last native Tibetan monarchy of Ü-Tsang in 1642. The Qing Kangxi emperor also distrusted the fifth Dalai Lama after he found correspondence between Wu Sangui and the Dalai Lama and the Dalai Lama suggested the Qing split their holdings and surrender the south to Wu Sangui.

And the Mongol territorial banner princes were different from their subjects, the Qing princesses who went into the banners brought entourages of "human dowry" of "servants" who married Mongol civilian women. Han Plain White Banner bannermen like Yuan Shoushan (governor general in Heilongjiang in 1900 and descendant of Yuan Chonghuan) married Mongol civilian women from the territorial banners.

Manchu princesses were married to Han bannermen in the 17th century and it dropped off after the Three Feudatories rebellion, but Kangxi still married one of his daughters to a Han bannerman after the battle of Jao Modo to Sun Chengyun, son of Sun Sike. No Qing princesses were married off to the Pholha family or the two Uyghur princes in Hami (Kumul) and Turpan (Turfan).

I mentioned the Pholha family and the 1727-8 and 1750-1 rebellions to show the control the Qing exercised over Ü-Tsang's form of internal government. The Qing decided to literally switch the entire government from theocracy to monarchy and then theocracy again through military force and install people who would be loyal in power. The Dalai Lamas were put into power by Oirat military force in the first place in 1642.

Han Green Standard Army soldiers were stationed directly in Lhasa, no Tibetan soldiers were stationed in non-Tibetan areas. Green Standard army are considered civilians. That is what is meant by "supremacy". There were no Tibetan military units stationed in Han cities like Chengdu or Chongqing by the Qing but Han soldiers were stationed in Lhasa and other Tibetan places.

Sichuanese Green Standard army units were also stationed at various outposts throughout Kham. Green Standard Army were almost exclusively recruited from Han and Hui civilians. Han and Hui Green Standard army were also stationed in Qinghai at places like Xining.

The descendants of Qing Green Standard army soldiers from Sichuan who married Tibetan women live in Lubu, Lhasa and they became vegetable farmers.

And you're not reading my post correctly. The Tusi are literally the ones who have less central government control, not more, they are literal hereditary fiefdoms. Claiming Kham only had one Tusi would mean the Qing controlled 90% of Kham under direct rule by the central government. You're not helping your own argument. And that's not true, this is the map of Tusi.

The Qing started cracking down on Kham Tusi when they sent Han Eight Banner general Zhao Erfeng and Green Standard army general Ma Weiqi to fight against Tibetan Lama rebels in northern Yunnan and western Sichuan (eastern Kham) in 1905 and abolishing them and directly ruling them. Zhao Erfeng and Ma Weiqi started massacring and torturing Lamas and their supporters to death after the Lamas tortured French Catholic missionaries and Tibetan Catholic converts to death. The Lamas gouged the eyes of the missionaries and Zhao boiled Lamas and flayed them.

The Qing inherited some Tibetan Tusi like Chone in Gansu from the Ming dynasty, but also created new ones in Kham and then annexed eastern Kham to Sichuan's jurisdiction.

Civilian Mongols in the territorial banners and leagues were forbidden from crossing or leaving into another league or banner or beyond the Great Wall or areas near the Russian border without a special internal passport, only granted to Mongol pilgrims going to Wutaishan. If they crossed the league border they could be fined or even enslaved by Karun border guards.

Han civilians were allowed to travel legally between Han provinces (the 18 provinces, Liaoning) and Dzungaria without special passports. And Han who crossed the great wall into Inner Mongolia or willow palisade into Jilin and Heilongjiang were punished with beatings if caught and then released.

Many Han civilians started illegally crossing the great wall into Inner Mongolia and married Mongol women. Their descendants became the "Mongol followers" like Li Shouxin who said his ancestor was a Han migrant who married a Mongol woman. The Qing officials did not bother to even punish them for the illegal crossing or marrying Mongol women (which was supposed to be illegal but it was ignored). Borjigin Burensain, Uradyn Erden Bulag (who are Mongols) and Tsai Wei-chieh and others have written about these. Many Han illegally went into Jilin and Heilongjiang and the Qing just gave up trying to enforce the ban.

The Qing stringently enforced the law on Mongol civilians (subjects of territorial banners and leagues) from crossing borders.

Han civilians had greater freedom of travel than all other civilians both legally and extra-legally. Tibetans barely left Tibetan regions. The Qing viewed Mongol civilians congregating with each other as the biggest threat and forbade them from even moving into other Mongol leagues.

The Qing stringently enforced the ban on Han civilian men marrying women from the Mongol Eight Banners at the Eight Banner garrisons, but did not enforce the ban on Han civilian men marrying Mongol civilian women in Mongolia. Han bannermen were allowed to legally marry Mongol civilian women like Heilongjiang military governor Yuan Shoushan who married a Mongol woman.

Han Green Standard army soldiers and Manchu bannermen were stationed in Uyghur areas as well and they often practiced temporary marriage with Uyghur women.

The Qing trusted Mongol Eight Bannermen the most out of non-Manchus but did not trust Mongol civilians. Mongol Eight Bannermen were often stationed right with Manchu bannermen, Han bannermen would be in a separate area like in Xi'an where they were in another quarter. Then the Qing relied on Han civilian Green Standard Army soldiers (a minority of them were Hui) to control garrisons in Tibet and Xinjiang. The Qing did not trust Tibetan or Uyghur civilians to garrison Han cities. And if people say that's because Uyghurs and Tibetans were a small minority numerically, Eight Banner Mongols were even smaller numerically. Most Mongols did not belong to the Eight Banners.

The Han Green Standard Army was stationed in Lhasa with the Amban (who was a Manchu or Mongol Eight bannerman) and at various points in Kham. The Green Standard are recruited from Han civilians in Sichuan. Read the pages in the images carefully.

Green Standard Army are not Eight Bannermen. They were not part of the Eight Banners, they were random ordinary Han civilians who enlisted in the army. Han bannermen were entirely separate from the Green Standard Army.

Zhao Erfeng was a Han Bannerman while Ma Weiqi was Green Standard Army. Yue Zhongqi was a Han civilian general of the Green Standard Army and not a Bannerman. The Green Standard army were recruited mostly from Han civilians and a minority of them were Hui, and they were the most widely deployed non-Banner soldiers across Qing territories, being stationed in Tibet and Xinjiang. Yue Zhongqi led a force of Han Green Standard army soldiers and Manchu bannermen into Lhasa in 1720 and the Qing established a permanent garrison of Green Standard army soldiers there.

The Qing did not station Tibetan or Uyghur soldiers in Han provinces.

Derge was a Tusi. I said Tusi were the ones not directly ruled by the Qing government. Tusi are the Chinese equivalent of princely states. There was one Han Tusi in the Qing dynasty called Kokang as well. Tusi are ruled by hereditary feudal nobles, one family would rule the fief, it's the Tusi that didn't have any central government soldiers in them and didn't have people inspecting the people's hairstyle. You somehow got the opposite understanding of what a Tusi is. Chone in Gansu was a Tusi, the Tibetan family who were given the Chinese surname Yang by the Ming dynasty ruled that area. Salars were also in Tusi.

Ü-Tsang was not a Tusi which is why Han Green Standard army soldiers were stationed in Lhasa and why a Manchu or Mongol Eight Banner Amban was stationed in Lhasa, Tusis didn't have those.

There was a Manchu official called Ortai who destroyed tons of ethnic minority Tusi in the southwest, like Miao and Yao and those ethnic minorities suffered greatly and he imposed direct rule with appointed magistrates. Zhao Erfeng was also abolishing Tusi in Kham and imposing direct rule.

Tusi are the only administrative units that don't have central government soldiers in them. You don't know or understand what a Tusi is.

I already pointed out in my other posts that Han Green Standard Army soldiers were stationed in Lhasa and at various points in Kham and in the Tarim Basin in Xinjiang, but Uyghurs and Tibetan soldiers were never stationed in Han cities and provinces.

If you read my other posts already, Mongol civilians in Mongolia (not part of the Eight Banners) were subjected to severe travel restrictions and forbidden to move into another Mongol league. They could not even leave their leagues or banners without internal passports issued by Qing authorities. Mongol commoners had to apply for internal passports from the Qing government to leave the league and go on religious pilgrimage to places like Wutai Shan.

Han people could legally go across all Han provinces (18 provincs plus Liaoning) and Dzungaria.

The people who said Mongols were treated better than Han are confusing ordinary Mongols with the Eight Banner Mongols, or confusing the Mongol commoner masses with their rulers (the Mongol princes). Right here on historum, someone in an other thread confused an Eight Banner Mongol noble (who were loyal to the Qing in the Xinhai revolution) with ordinary commoner Inner and Outer Mongolians.

There's a Dutch person who runs a Manchu archery website who is either ignorant or lying and he confuses Eight Banner Mongol privileges with all Mongols in the Qing. Ordinary Mongol commoners were not exempt from physical punishments, not given stipends, could not move outside their leagues. There are also people who look at the Qing maps of the territorial banners and leagues in Mongolia and mistakenly think all Mongols were part of the Mongol Eight Banners.

Most people in China now don't know or don't care about the difference between Eight Banner Mongols and other Mongols in the Qing. To random people on the Chinese internet all Mongols are the same.

Manchus were not nomads and they tried to disrupt Mongol nomadic culture by forbidding Mongol commoners from crossing their own leagues and forbidding them from interacting with each other. Manchu banner soldiers set up Karun border guard outposts on league borders to arrest any Mongol civilians crossing over them without an internal passport. A Mongol commoner crossing them was fined or even enslaved.

Just like the Russian empire and Soviet Union had internal passports which specifically restricted movements of Jews.

This is actually false pushed by New Qing history people. The Qing emperor didn't hold multiple titles, he held one title, Huangdi (emperor) in the Manchu language, he never held the title of Lama or King of Tibet. In the Mongol language, huangdi was translated as Khan, not in the dual monarchy sense (he wasn't simultaneously Khan of Mongolia and emperor of another area) but just as Khan of the whole Qing dynasty (over all its regions including Tibet and Xinjiang).

The early Qing emperors also insulted Tibetan Buddhist Lamas saying the religion was fake and they were liars but they had to patronise it to control the Mongols who believed in Tibetan Buddhism. Note that the Lamas were not necessarily ethnic Tibetans but could by Mongols as well.

Manchus imposed a multiple new layers of bureaucratic systems (Lifanyuan) to administer Mongolia. The Qing ran the most bloated bureaucratic system in history. And it has nothing to do with why the power of the central government collapsed.

The Qing government did not control China's military by 1900. The majority of China's military including most of the arsenal of machine guns and modern artillery was under the control of Han governor-generals like Yuan Shikai, Li Hongzhang, Liu Kunyi and Zhang Zhidong after the creation of provincial armies due to the Taiping rebellion that had their own command chains and officer staff.

The western allies in the Eight Nation Alliance did not think they were capable of taking on all those provincial armies which is why they stopped after Beijing. The Han governor generals warned them they would go to war if they tried to occupy all of China, many of them didn't care about Manchus in Beijing suffering atrocities by the Eight Nation alliance and wouldn't send soldiers to die for them but would fight for their own provinces. Eight Nation Alliance troops suffered most of their casualties to armies commanded by Han like Dong Fuxiang, Nie Shicheng, Ma Yukun and Song Qing who withdrew their troops at Beicang despite killing more Alliance troops since they didn't want to spill more of their own blood.

Dong threatened the Alliance that he could wage war from Xi'an. The Alliance did not agree to withdraw in the Boxer protocol because they were being generous. And earlier in the Sino-French war, Han provincial armies defeated the French army triying to invade Guangxi at Bang Bo and Taiwan at Tamsui and Keelung.

The Eight Banners and Mengan Mouke (used by the Jin Jurchens) were literally a bureaucratic system. The Qing even broke up traditional Jurchen tribal confederations across the Eight Banners when creating it. The Mongols never created anything like the Eight Banners before. The Qing created a massive complex bureaucratic system to regulate Eight Banner garrisons and constantly wrote reports.

The topic is about the rights of non-Banner civilians.

The Mongols who became part of the Mongol Eight Banners were the first to join the Later Jin voluntarily. Han Bannermen came later. Manchu banners and Han Banners also had multiple types of banners ranked on how recently they joined the Qing since the Qing ranked Eight Banners on how recently people defected to the Qing.. There was a difference between old Han bannermen who joined the Qing before 1644 and new Han bannermen who joined the Qing after 1644 who were lower ranking. There was also a tier in the Mongol Eight banners with "Old" Mongol Eight banners and "New" Mongol Eight banners depending on who joined the Qing first, and also a tier in Manchu banners, with "old" Manchu banners consisting of Manchu people while the "new" Manchu banners consisted of other Tungusic people who were conquered by the Qing and forced to submit later.

The Chahar part of Inner Mongolia was conquered by the defeat of Ligdan Khan. Ligdan Khan's family later tried revolting against the Qing but were defeated. Outer Mongolia joined the Qing later out of fear of the Dzungars.

Access to other people's women was a sign of how low or higher ranking people were according to the view of the Qing government. Eight Banner Mongol women were off limits to Han but Han bannermen and Han civilians married Mongol civilian women.

Han civilians and Mongol civilians weren't supposed to be even in contact with each other at all under Qing law, but Qing officials did not enforce the law against many Han crossing the Great Wall into Mongolia and they didn't break up the marriages when they found Han men marrying Mongol women.

Under Qing law, Mongol civilians were not supposed to travel outside their leagues into other Mongol leagues, and no non-Eight Banner people (both Mongol civilians and Han civilians) were supposed to cross the Great Wall between Han provinces and Mongolia or cross the willow palisade between Liaoning and Jilin. Han civilians were legally allowed to travel between all Han provinces.

Many Han illegally crossed the Great Wall to pick mushrooms or farm and they started cohabiting with civilian Mongol women. Many local officials ignored the illegal Han merchant and farmers border crossing and marrying Mongol women and accepted bribes to let them stay in Mongolia or sent false reports to Beijing under-reporting the amount of Han. It was mostly mushroom pickers and wood poachers who were beaten and then deported back if caught.

Manchu soldiers in the karun outposts did enforce the law against Mongol civilians trying to cross league boundaries. Also the Qing enforced the law against Eight Banner Mongol women not marrying Han.

There were also Han who migrated into Kharachin before the Qing dynasty like the Wang (汪) family from Shandong. They along with all the Khorchin to the Qing dynasty in their war against Ligdan Khan and the Ming dynasty and the Qing registered them as ethnic Mongols Harachin Right Wing Banner.

Qing officials were stricter against mushroom poachers and wood poachers than farmers.

Officials were strict on deporting wood poachers and mushroom pickers, but Han merchants, farmers and craftsmen paid bribes to officials to stay in Mongolia and marry Mongol women.

Many people got confused between the Mongol Eight Banners and the territorial banners of Mongolia under the Lifanyuan's jurisdiction.

The inner part of Beijing surrounding the Forbidden City was populated by Eight Banners and civilians were banned from living there. Han civilians lived in the area south of the "square" city surrounding the Forbidden City.

The Qing view of hypergamous marriage and restricting women inside the house came from Confucianism.

The Qing at first didn't outlaw marriage between Eight Bannermen and civilians, but later banned civilian from marrying Eight Banners. When Manchus first came into Beijing, the Prince Dorgon issued regulations in the name of the Shunzhi emperor saying Han civilian men could marry Manchu women and they should ask the permission of the niru captain. Later this practice of intermariage between civilians and bannermen was banned in the Kangxi era as Manchus adopted neo-Confucian views of women. 

Before the Qing dynasty, Manchu would could interact with strangers and talk with other men in public. Both unmarried and married Manchu women in the Nanjing garrison openly talked to male strangers as said by a Dutch diplomat westerner in China in the Shunzhi reign. But Neo-Confucianism restricts women from interacting with other men and encouraged men to guard and kill their wives for talking to others. Manchus in Beijing adopted Han culture the most and they adopted the Han idea of guarding their women against outsiders from Confucianism. They started forbidding them to leave the house and to not interact with other men. Their children inherited their father's ethnicity, not their mothers. Manchus in Beijing were also said to be the worst militarily and did not have the strength to draw their bows properly.

Neo-Confucian Han men killed their wives for talking to male strangers and regarded women's chastity and fidelity as the most important and  Beijing Manchus sought to imitate these Han.

Later in the 19th century in 1865 the Qing dynasty changed the rule banning marriage of civilian men to Eight Banner women to only apply to Beijing, so civilian men in Beijing could not marry Eight Banner women but it did not apply to Manchu garrisons outside of Beijing.

The rule in Han areas and in the Eight Banners was that people were their father's ethnicity. If their father was Manchu bannerman, they were a Manchu bannerman, if their father was a Mongol bannerman, they were a Mongol bannerman, if their father was a Han bannerman they were Han and if their father was a Han civilian they were a Han civilian.

Manchus in Xi'an followed traditional Manchu culture more closely, and Manchu women in Xi'an often went outside of the Eight Banner garrison by themselves to the springs outside the Manchu garrison and acquired a bad reputation (for extra marital sex). A Manchu from outside of Xi'an, Sumurji, who was assigned to supervise the Xi'an garrison was shocked and asked the Qing Yongzheng emperor to ban Manchu women there from going to the springs. Manchus in Xi'an were said to be able to draw their bows properly and ride horses and follow the traditional "old way" unlike Manchus in Beijing and were called to fight against the Dzungars. Manchus in Beijing forbade their women from leaving their houses and the banner city.

The only people Manchu women could be intermingling in the springs outside the city in Xi'an were Han men and Hui people. They could just hang out in the banner garrison itself if they were doing it with other Manchus, Sumurji was clearly angry about them mixing with outsiders.

For centuries Manchu men in Xi'an also did not marry Han civilian women, Han men in Xi'an appeared to to view it as undignified to marry their women out. Most Manchus in Xi'an were pure Manchus and did not have non-Manchu mothers. Both the Hui and Han in Xi'an massacred and destroyed the Xi'an Manchu banner garrison in 1911, killing Manchu males and taking the Manchu women there as concubines.

Manchus in Beijing regarded keeping their women away from strangers as a sign they adopted Confucianism properly. It was Manchus who adopted Han culture the most who forbade their women from interacting with strangers, while Manchus who retained traditional ways let their women wander outside the garrison and interact with Han men.

The Qing never had much social control over Manchus in the northeast where restrictions were looser unlike in Beijing, Han civilian men and Han bannermen both married Manchu women in Liaoning in the 19th century and Han civilian men married Evenki women, Oroqen women, Nanai (Hezhen) in Heilongjiang and Jilin too.

Poor Manchus in the northeastern garrisons in Liaoning and Heilongjiang started giving their daughters away in marriage to Han bannermen more as the Qing dynasty was collapsing in the late 19th century in the 1800s and even faster after 1900. This was legal but looked down upon by Beijing Manchus. And some Han civilian men also started marrying Manchu women in the northeast garrisons in Liaoning and Heilongjiang, this was legalised there after 1865 but this was totally banned in Beijing.

Beijing was viewed as the centre of Manchus across the Qing dynasty, not Heilongjiang or Jilin despite Manchus originating from there. The Eight Nation Alliance massacred and raped Manchus and Mongol banner women in Beijing in 1900.

Within the Eight Banners itself, there was no written law on intermarriage but it was the informal practice that the higher ranking Eight Banners practiced hypergamy and not marry their women to lower ranking banners. Han Eight bannermen married Mongol civilian women instead of Eight Banner Mongol women.

Being moved from the lower banners to a higher banner was seen as a promotion. Han bannermen and bondservants were moved into the Manchu banners if they were in-laws of the emperor, the Qianlong emperor moved the Han Gao family from Han bondservant company into a Manchu banner since the Gao provided imperial consorts. The Gao men then immediately married Manchu women after being promoted to a Manchu banner (something they didn't do when they were Han bondservants).

The Eight Banners 
Old Manchu Banners
New Manchu Banners (other Tungusic peoples and the Daur people)
Old Mongol Banners
New Mongol Banners
Old Han Banners (these mostly joined before 1644)
New Han Banners (mostly post 1644 defectors, most of these New Han bannermen but not all were moved to civilians in the Qianlong reign)
There were various assorted bondservants and slaves like sinjeku (辛者庫), baoyi or booi aha etc. assigned to serve the normal Bannermen of each banner (Koreans in the Eight Banners were only in the slave companies, that's where the Korean concubine Jin (Kim) of the Qianlong emperor came from).

And then there were ordinary civilians outside the Eight Banner civilians like Han civilians, Mongol civilians, Tibetans, Uyghurs below them in the hierarchy.

And the topic of marrying Manchu princesses off is different from ordinary Manchu women outmarriage. Aisin Gioro in its early years married off princesses to Han men who became Han bannermen and married them out to Mongol princes of strategic banners, but this is different from ordinary Manchu bannerwomen marrying out. There were Han like the Gao family who married Manchu women not from Aisin Gioro, like the Niohuru clan.

Both Han Green Standard Army soldiers and Manchu bannermen in the Xinjiang garrisons frequently took Uyghur women as temporary wives. But they left their half-Uyghur children in the Uyghur areas when their rotations ended and they were returned to their home garrisons just like the soldiers in the Lubu area in Lhasa. Uyghurs apparently absorbed the children and didn't follow any rule on patrilineal ethnicity.

Han ethnicity is patrilineal and the identity in the Eight Banners were also patrilineal, while Koreans, Japanese, Vietnamese weren't.

Manchus are still a separate ethnic group according to traditional Chinese conceptions of ethnicity, no matter if they speak only Sinitic languages and practice Han culture.

The Qing Yongzheng emperor and the Tuoba Xianbei both made it clear that they and Han viewed Han as an ethnicity (based on paternal descent), by not including themselves under Han but instead trying to extend the scope of Hua to include themselves, to leave Han as the name of the ethnicity and Hua as the name of all who were culturally Chinese.

Before the sixteen kingdoms and northern dynasties, Han people called themselves Hua and pretty much used Hua as the name of their ethnicity. The northern "barbarians" referred to the Hua people as Han because the Han dynasty ruled for over 420 years and it made the biggest impression on them so they called Han people after the Han dynasty.

The Tuoba Xianbei tried to extend the term Hua into a civilisational term to encompass the Xianbei while Han became the ethnic term for the first time in the Northern dynasties. This is the same ethnic definition of Han used in the Ming and Qing. The Yongzheng emperor regarded Manchus as culturally Hua but clearly stated Manchu and Han were two different ethnicities by blood (which basically meant paternal ancestry in Chinese culture).

Now some people bring up the use of the word Han as a class category during the Yuan dynasty as an excuse to claim its not an ethnic term- except Han as an ethnic identity continued to be used alongside the separate usage of the word Han as the class category.

And some people will point to the Hundred family surnames containing Xianbei surnames as a statement on Chinese identity. The Hundred family surnames was composed in the Song dynasty and the ranking on their is political, the Song imperial surname Zhao and the Wuyue royal surname Qian appear at the front, while ancient Han clan surnames which existed from the Zhou dynasty to the present day like Dongye were excluded from the Hundred family surnames. The Hundred family surnames is not a list of Han surnames or a statement on which surnames are really Chinese, Dongye was an old noble family descended from Zhou royalty.

Southern Han, Vietnamese and Japanese tended to use the term Tang (Sometimes pronounced as Kara in Japanese like in the word Karayuki-san) to refer to Han people or China and Chinese things in general, after the Tang dynasty since the Tang dynasty ruled for 300 years and made the biggest impression on Japan and the Tang dynasty ruled southern China (while southern China was not part of the Northern dynasties when Han came into use as the ethnic name by the Xianbei). This usage of the word Tang is not in exclusion to the word Han, Tang is used as a synonym of Han. A Cantonese person calling themselves a Tang person would also regard and call a northern Han from Henan as a Tang person, while the northern Han from Henan would call himself and the Cantonese person as Han people. Japanese would call both northern and southern Han as Tang people. Japanese used both Han and Tang to describe Chinese things.

Since non-Muslim Hui who pretended to be Han by forging genealogies with Han paternal ancestors are still not Han despite using Han surnames, following Han religions and culture for centuries (they intended all along to secretly remember their Hui identity by building their ancestral temples in the shape of the Hui character and not offering pork at the altar) it still can be said that the Murong and Dugu people in China are still not Han, and Manchus are not Han. One non-Muslim Hui clan which didn't try to hide as Han was the Sa clan of Fuzhou. The Ding of Chendai, Guo of Baiqi, Jin clan in Quanzhou and Zhou Enlai's family in Shaoxing created fake family trees to try to pass in public while knowing they were not Han.

Korean, Japanese and Vietnamese ethnic identities are different. Korea has Hui founded clans which abandoned Islam like Deoksu Jang clan and Sanggok Ma clan and a Jurchen founded clan (they have Hui and Jurchen paternal ancestry and are open about it, there are also Korean clans founded by Han men and even a Dutch man who was shipwrecked in Korea). They don't need to have Korean paternal ancestry to call themselves ethnic Korean, they are just Koreans. Same with Japanese ethnic identity which has clans which openly trace paternal ancestry to Achi No Omi (alleged Han dynasty royal). The Korean Hui clans let Islam after King Sejong of Joseon banned Islam in 1427 and closed down the only mosque in Korea and stopped paying them stipends. The Hui came to Korea during Goryeo under the Yuan dynasty.

Han ethnic identity traditionally is centered around paternal descent, ultimately to the Yellow Emperor.

The majority of Zhuang people and Bouyei people, the low cast untouchable Tanka (Dan jia) people of Guangdong and Fujian, the She people, non-Muslim Hui clans in Quanzhou and Shaoxing, some Di people like Lü Guang, the Tang dynasty poet Li Bai, Shatuo Turks like Shi Jingtang and Liu Zhiyuan tried to falsely claim Han ethnic identity by forging genealogies claiming their paternal ancestors were Han men from clans in the northern China yellow river region who moved either north into the steppes of Mongolia or west into Central Asia or south into southern China.

The Zhuang and Bouyei and non-Muslim Hui stopped doing this in the 1950s after centuries of their clans trying to pretend to be Han with these fake genealogies which are full of historical inaccuracies people can spot in their attempts to clan paternal Han ancestry.

This is so wrong. Tungusic people are the most Mongoloid people (phenotypically and genetically) in China and perhaps Siberia as well. The pure Tungusic people like Evenks look extremely Mongoloid with even flatter faces than Han.

Southern Tungusic Manchus are a mix of northern Tungusic and Han and have an intermediate appearance between the two. Han admixture make Manchus look less Mongoloid, not more.



Manchus were massacred in the provincial garrisons at Xi'an, Taiyuan and Zhenjiang. At Xi'an the Manchu men were killed and the females were taken.

Traditionally Han is a paternal based ethnicity, ethnic identity is traced by the father. There's a fabricated quote attributed to Confucius and Han Yu, in reality Confucius didn't say it and what Han Yu said was trying exclude people from Han identity, not include "barbarians" as Han. He was saying that the Zhou feudal lords who used Hua practices were Chinese while those who used Yi practices were barbarian (implying that Chinese who adopted Buddhism would become barbarian since Han Yu hated Buddhism).

Many ethnic minorities in Chinese history fabricated genealogies showing paternal Han ancestry when they tried to pass as Han, like the Zhuang, non-Muslim Hui in parts of China, Bohai, Shatuo, She, Tanka (Dan). Because Han traced ancestry by the father.

Han regarded people as Han if their father was Han, the mother didn't matter. If your father was Han and your mother was Manchu, you were Han. If your father was Manchu and your mother was Han, you were not Han.

The Manchu official Duanfang begged for mercy in 1911 by claiming he was really Han because he was paternally descended from a Han surnamed Tao who founded the Tohoro clan. He was then killed anyway. Duanfang didn't claim to be Han by culture or language (he spoke Mandarin), he clearly indicated he knew Han identity was by paternal descent.

Many people mistake Han people retaining the queue as wanting to restore the Qing. That's wrong, there were two groups of Han rebels, the traditionalist Han rebels like Gelaohui and the pro-westernization Tongmenghui group.

What traditional Han people objected to was shaving the forehead, they never objected to the braid of hair in the back, since traditional Chinese hairstyle demands all hair be kept, many anti-Qing rebels kept the braid while they grew the hair on their forehead to defy the hair regulation The Qing dynasty knew this which is why it focused on shaving and not the braid as the sign of loyalty.

Traditionalist rebels like the Gelaohui in 1911 massacred Manchu men and seized the women in the garrisons, and wanted to promote traditional hairstyles and clothes like Daoist clerical Hanfu robes. The pro-westernizer rebels in the Tongmenghui on the other hand wanted all Chinese men to adopted short western crew cut hairstyles which is why they began forcibly shaving people's braids.

Western missionaries trying to promote short western hair lied and falsely claimed that the braid was the sign of loyalty to the Qing.

Even when Zhu Yuangzhang ordered Semu Mongoloid and Mongol remnants to marry Han (it ordered both males and non-Han females contrary to the falsehood spread on multiple articles and this forum that it was non-Han males only), the intent was that those with Han fathers would identify as Han and those with non-Han fathers would identify as Semu or Tatar Mongol. Zhu Yuanzhang's order specifically excluded the Huihui and Kipchaks from intermarraige with Han and only encouraged Semu of Mongoloid origint to intermarry, since Huihui and Kipcaks looked Caucasoid. Contrary to Donald Leslie, Kristian Petersen, and Kelly A Hammond lying and claiming the order was for Muslim men to marry locals, that was never ordered by the Ming emperor, Zhu Yuangzong specifically excluded Huihui (both Muslim, Jewish and Christian Huihui) from marrying Han and never said it was about Han women and Semu men, Semu women were required to marry Han men too.

Many Semu Hui men who came to Yuan China were given Korean wives by Kublai Khan, and during the Yuan itself so there was a large Hui population by the early Ming with both males and females that had no Han blood, Han men like Su Tangshe married Semu Hui women from Pu Shougeng's family in Quanzhou. Also Han men from the Shi family like Shi Gang and his brother (another one of Shi Tianze's sons) married Mongol woman like a Kerait woman and Menggu Baer's daughter during the Yuan.

So the Ming law applied to both the males and females of Semu and totally excluded the Qipchaq and Huihui subset of the Semu from marriage with Han (a minority of Semu Hui men brought their own women from west Asia while others married Korean women). Zhu Yuanzhang's son Zhu Shuang, Prince of Qin married a Mongol woman, Consort Minlie who was the sister of the Mongol Wang Baobao aka Köke Temür. His children identified as Han. Zhu Yuangzhang himself had a Korean concubine surnamed Han (韓) and his children were all regarded as Han.

The idea that there was a self sustaining male only Semu Hui population for decades during the Yuan that reproduced asexually and were suddenly ordered to marry Han women by Zhu Yuanzhang is false. Those Semu Hui men married Korean women during the Yuan, and then their half Korean half Hui daughters married Han men during the Yuan and only non-Huihui Semu were ordered to marry Han, including Semu women and Han men, in early Ming. Also the fact that during the Yuan itself, married of Han men to Hui women and Mongol women was legal and happened but people are spreading a false claim that the Ming only made Han women marry out shows how ridiculous the claim is.

An Omani man named Sayyid Abu Ali moved to Yuan Dadu Khanbaliq (Beijing) and was married to a Korean woman by Kublai Khan, and he died there and was buried in Quanzhou.

In Quanzhou, the Su family identifies as Han because their paternal ancestor Su Tangshe was Han despite marrying Hui women from Pu Shougeng's family.

Meanwhile the non-Muslim Ding of Chendai, Guo of Baiqi, Jin and other clans identify as Hui despite their ancestors abandoning Islam because their paternal ancestry is Hui. For several centuries they pretended to be Han by making up genealogies showing Han men as paternal ancestors like Ding Du and Guo Ziyi instead of their actual ancestors Sayyid Ajall Shams ud-Din Omar and Al-Qudsan Al-Dhaghan Nam but they stopped it in the 1950s and reclaimed their Hui identity.

Zhou Enlai allegedly was a non-Muslim Hui descended from Sayyid Ajall who adopted a fake genealogy with the Han man Zhou Dunyi as the paternal ancestor when pretending to be Han but stopped it too.

(Zhu Shuang (3 December 1356 – 9 April 1395) was an imperial prince of the Chinese Ming dynasty. He was the second son of the founding ruler, the Hongwu Emperor. In May 1370, the Hongwu Emperor granted him the title of Prince of Qin, with a princely fiefdom in modern-day Xi'an. He served as the director of the Imperial Clan Court.[1]

In October 1371, Zhu Shuang married the sister of the Mongol warlord Köke Temür, but the marriage did not bring the desired results as Köke remained loyal to the Mongol Khan (and Yuan emperor) Ayushiridara.[6] Zhu Shuang preferred his second wife,[7] the daughter of the general Deng Yu, whom he married in late 1375.[2] He had six sons and two daughters.

• Consort Minlie (愍烈妃) of the Wang clan (王氏; d. 1395), the primary consort, younger sister of Köke Temür. After Zhu Shuang's death, she was forced to commit suicide by the Hongwu Emperor.^[1]
• Lady of the Deng clan (鄧氏), the secondary consort, daughter of Deng Yu (鄧愈).^[1] Committed suicide by hanging after being condemned by the Hongwu Emperor due to jealousy.^[12]
  • Zhu Shangbing (朱尚炳), Prince Yin of Qin (秦隱王; 1380-1412), first son^[1]
  • Zhu Shanglie (朱尚烈), Prince Yijian of Yongxing (永興懿簡王; 29 September 1384 – 22 February 1417), second son^[13]
  • Zhu Shangyu (朱尚煜), Prince Daoxi of Bao'an (保安悼僖王; 20 November 1385 – 25 February 1410), third son^[14][15]
• Lady of the Zhang clan (張氏)^[16]
  • Zhu Shangzhou (朱尚烐), Prince Gongjing of Xingping (興平恭靖王; 19 October 1389 – 15 May 1449), fourth son^[17][16]
• Unknown
  • Zhu Shanghong (朱尚灴), Prince Huaijian of Yongshou (永壽懷簡王; 17 April 1390 – 19 September 1420), fifth son^[18][19]
  • Zhu Shangkai (朱尚炌), Prince of Anding (安定王; b. 4 December 1394), sixth son^[20][21][b]
  • Princess Pucheng (蒲城郡主), first daughter. Married to Wu Lun (吳倫).^[20]
  • Princess Chang'an (長安郡主), second daughter. Married to Ru Jian (茹鑒), son of Ru Chang (茹瑺).^[23])

Before the Yuan dynasty renamed them to Tusi, the ethnic minority hereditary fiefdoms in the south, southwest and west of China used to be referred to as Jimi since the Tang dynasty.

Pang Xiaotai and his 13 sons who were killed during the war between Tang and Goguryeo at Sasu river in 662 were ethnic minority from Guangxi, not Han people. Tang dynasty records explicitly state Pang Xiaotai was a "barbarian" non-Han chieftain who ruled a domain in Guangxi.

Pang Xiaotai led a rebellion against the Tang dynasty before surrendering and he was ordered to fight Goguryeo. He brought along all of his thirteen sons (later ethnic minority Tusi leaders apparently often brought their entire families to fight far away) when bringing his private ethnic minority army north. Most Korean writings deliberately leave out his ethnicity.

Before the She-An Rebellion in the Ming dynasty, the ethnic minority Tusi chief She Chongming from Sichuan dragged his troops along with their their entire families when the Ming ordered him to send troops to fight against the Later Jin Jurchens in Liaodong in 1621. He had 20,000 troops and they brought 60,000 family members. The Ming refused to provide supplies for all the family members and told them to leave their families at home and he then revolted after the refusal to allow their families to come to the war.

The Ming earlier ordered the Bozhou Tusi chieftain Yang Yinglong to fight against Japanese during the Imjin war in Korea in 1593, after he had rebelled against the Ming in 1589.

Many ethnic minority Tusi troops were in Nanjing in the southern Ming army. The Han soldiers and civilians turned the city over peacefully to the Qing while the ethnic minority troops were massacred.

no this is all wrong.

first you are confusing Mongol Eight Bannermen with all Mongols in general. They are two different groups of people, the majority of Mongols were never part of the Eight Banners.

Mongol Eight Banners ≠ Mongol civilians of the territorial banners.

The ethnic Manchu banners aka old Manchus themselves were clearly separated from the Daur and Oroqen new Manchus in separate sub groups inside the Manchu banners, and the Koreans inside the Eight banners were in the bondservant companies, not in the military companies.

Han Bannermen and Mongol Bannermen were in their own banners, while individual Han bannermen or Mongol bannermen were moved to Manchu banners there was clear demarcation between the different types of Banners.

Non-Eight banner Mongols were always classified as a different ethnic group, they were never Qiren.

Daur and Oroqen were split because they were part of the new Manchu banners, the hunting banners, while old Manchus who still spoke the Manchu language around Aigun were still classified as ethnic Manchus by the PRC.

All of these ethnic groups were clearly demarcated from each other as separate.

The case of the Tong family of Fushun also shows how ethnic identities worked.

Tong Yangxing and Tong Yangzhen defected to Nurhaci and one of these Tongs was married to a daughter of Nurhaci while their relative Tong Bunian who remained in Ming service was accused of being a Jurchen (of the Tunggiya clan) and sympathetic to the Later Jin (Qing) due to his relation to Tong Yangxing and put on trial for that. The Ming had no evidence of accusations of treason against him other than accusations of his ancestry, the Ming officials were saying that Tong Bunian was an ethnic Jurchen and not Han (Tong Bunian spoke Mandarin natively and used Han style name) showing they viewed paternal ancestry as ethnic identity and a legitimate reason to execute him.

Tong Bunian specifically denied this accusation and said not all Tongs in Fushun were related to Tunggiya (saying he was not of Jurchen descent) and his ancestors were always loyal to the Ming , he accepted the argument that if he was really from Tunggiya that he could be legitimately prosecuted for it but denied that he was. Tong Yangxing and Tong Yangzhen's family meanwhile was put into the Han banners by the Qing.

However later on Kangxi's maternal relatives (his mother was one of the Tong put into the Han banners) claimed that the Tong of Fushun were descended from the Jurchen Tunggiya clan and argued that they were wrongly placed in the Han banners and as Jurchens, they should be switched to the Manchu banners. Pamela Kyle Crossley rejects the accuracy of their claim that they were from the Tong of Fushun, but Kangxi transferred his relatives to the Manchu banner.

All of this shows that all these people (the Ming officials prosecuting Tong Bunian, Tong Bunian himself, Kangxi and his maternal uncles and cousins from the Tong family) all accepted that ethnic identity was paternal, you were Han if your paternal lineage was Han and you were Jurchen if your paternal lineage was Jurchen. Kangxi himself married one of his daughters off to a Han bannerman, Sun Chengyun, (Sun Sike's son) and their children would be in the Han banners because they were their father's ethncity, not their mother's.

https://muse.jhu.edu/article/398599/summary

Later the Qing dynasty promoted the families of all non-Manchu bannerwomen or bondservants married to the Qing emperor to Manchu banners, but that was not the reason the Tongs were moved into a Manchu banner, the appeal by the Tongs explicitly said it was because they claimed Jurchen ancestry from Tungiya so they should never have been put in the Han banners.

Later the Qing made it a policy to move all in-laws of emperors into Manchu banners, they moved Han families like Gao into the Manchu banners and gave them Manchu suffixies on their surname (Gaojia, Gaogiya) since two Gao women were consorts of Kangxi and Qianlong (they didn't have any children). The Han men from those Gao families who were moved into the Manchu banners then married Manchu women from the Nara and other clans.

This indicates that Han males could become Manchus (by being in-laws of the Qing emperor) but Manchus could not become Han. Also most of these Han families were from bondservant companies, not from the regular Han eight banner fighting companies. Qianlong also had a Korean concubine, Kim/Jin (Consort Shujia) from a bondservant company.

Just as Han Yu believed Hua could become Yi, but Yi could not become Hua, the Qing accepted the Tongs as non-Han Jurchens (due to alleged Jurchen patrilineal ancestry) going into a Manchu banner, but also accepted Han families with Han patrilineal ancestors (Gao) into the Manchu banners, which meant that Han could become Manchus but Manchus could not become Han.

This paragraph is as horrifically inaccurate as the post you are responding to. What the Xianbei did was try to replace Hua with Han as the de facto ethnonym so they could include themselves under Hua as a cultural term while making Han the ethnic term for the native people of the central plains. They didn't invent the concept of ethnic identity, the people of the central plains already saw themselves as a distinct Hua ethnic group.

Everything else is just semantics and using different terms. The Sinitic speaking people of southern China identified themselves as the same ethnic group as people of the Central Plains, they just used the term Tang instead of Han, after the Tang dynasty. They didn't use the term in opposition to Han but as a synonym of Han, just like today South Koreans call both themselves and North Koreans as Hanguk people while North Koreans call both themselves and South Koreans as Choson people. A person from Guangdong in Song dynasty would refer to both themselves and a person from the central plains as a Tang person while a person from Henan would refer to both of them as a Han person. Southern Han people claimed their paternal ancestry originated from Henan in northern China and denied being paternally descended from the Baiyue natives.

Han ethnic identity was based on paternal descent. Han people in Fujian claimed paternal descent from Han in northern China like Guo Ziyi. While Hui people in different provinces are paternally closer to each other than Han people in the same provinces. Hui in Quanzhou, Fujian from the Ding family and Hui in Yunnan and Ningxia from the Na family both claim descent from Sayyid Ajall's sons, while Han people surnamed Guo in Fujian and Shaanxi both claim descent from Guo Ziyi. And Hui people who tried to hide as Han had fake family trees with Han paternal ancestors, the Ding and Guo Hui families in Quanzhou both did this claiming Ding Du and Guo Ziyi as ancestors to hide as Han. Their paternal identity determined ethnic identity.

Han people used Han, Hua and Tang interchangeably to refer to the same ethnic concept throughout this time, they didn't use them in opposition to each other.

This is also all wrong just like the post you are responding to. Cutting the braid in the queue was NOT a symbol of defiance to the Qing, growing your hair on the front of your head was. Most Southern Ming loyalists and even Taiping rebels didn't mind having the braid but they refused to shave the front of their head. The whole Han opposition to queue order was not about wearing the braid but the shaving the front of the head part. Anti-Qing rebels kept their braids because cutting your hair was against Confucianism. The Qing ordered everyone to shave the front of their head, the last thing that traditional minded Han people would do was to cut off the rest of their hair as well.

The idea of cutting the braid originated in the late 19th century from westernisers and western missionaries who wanted to force western hairstyles on Han people which meant short hair. Many traditionalist anti-Qing Han rebels from Huidaomen groups participated in the 1911 revolution like the Gelaohui group. They massacred Manchus in Xi'an and they did not want to cut the braids and wanted to restore Han clothing like Daoist type robes, but the pro-western revolutionaries forced people to cut their braids and introduced western clothes.

Idea of ethnic groups like Han, Hui, Salar are native to China and were not introduced by the west. Racism and ethnic hatred wasn't introduced to China by the west.

Li Hongzhang, Zhang Zhidong and Yuan Shikai allowed the Manchu majority city of Beijing to get sacked in 1900 and refused to aid them against the Eight Nation Alliance when the Qing court was pleading for Han governor generals to send their armies against the Eight Nation Alliance. Yuan Shikai also ordered Ma Anliang to call off the assault against Gelaohui Shaanxi rebels who slaughtered Manchus in Xi'an in 1912.

The majority of people in Beijing's inner city again, were ethnic Manchus and Eight Banner Mongols and Eight Banner Han. Not Han civilians.

Many people in traditional multi ethnic countries hate each other. There were tensions between Hazaras and Tajiks and Pashtuns in pre-British protectorate Afghanistan before the British invasions, when they already lived in one kingdom. Indians of different ethnic groups also hated each other in medieval times while living in the same kingdoms. Manchus aren't foreigners to China, they were in the same state as Han in the Yuan, early Ming but to say there is no ethnic hatred is ridiculous. Same applies to the Indian person you responded to since Maratha Hindus massacred Bengali Hindus during their campaigns, they might have lived in one state together during Mauryan era and shared the same religion but that doesn't mean ethnic hatred doesn't exist. Assamese Hindus also hate Bengali Hindus.

Hua can become Yi, whereas how the Yi can become Hua is not even a theory they explored.

Yes, exactly, Han Yu and other scholars said that Hua could potentially become Yi but they never said Yi could become Hua. That's because they regarded their identity as both paternal and cultural, you had to have both paternal Han ancestry and practice Han culture to be a Han, if you don't have paternal Han ancestry you're not a Han (you're a Yi) and if you have paternal Han ancestry from practice Yi (barbarian) culture, you are also Yi. They didn't believe Yi could become Hua. Han people called other people who practiced Confucianism or Han influenced culture like Zhuang and Koreans as Yi people and never accepted them as Hua.

For example, Taiping Guangji mentions a case of a northern official called Zheng Yin who mocked a southern backup official as a Han idiot. The backup official responded with a play on word that "I am a Wu idiot, you are a Han."

《太平广记·卷第二百五十五·嘲诮三》：唐郑愔曾骂选人为痴汉。选人曰：“仆是吴痴，汉即是公。

You know what humour is right? The fact that the northern official called him Han indicated he viewed that they shared the same ethnicity already.

The Gelaohui massacred Manchus in Xi'an and they murdered several western Protestant missionaries before the pro-western republicans forced them to stop the missionary killing. They regularly circulated both anti-missionary, anti-western and anti-Manchu propaganda before the revolution. Huidaomen like Gelaohui believed in Han ethnic identity and were massively xenophobic and not influenced by western ideas at all. They hated western clothing, culture, ideas. The most massacres of Manchus in 1911 took place in areas under the control of traditional Han Huidaomen groups, while it was the western influenced republicans who had the lowest rate of massacres.

Huidaomen in 1912 promoted Daoist priest's dress explicitly because it was an example of Hanfu that continuously survived through the Qing and they did not want to wear banner clothes or western clothes. They were against braid cutting and wanted to promote traditional Han long hair.

Xianbei, Jurchen Manchus all wanted to include themselves under the cultural term Hua (while using Han as the ethnic term, while Han tried to reject them using Hua as the term. Yongzheng tried to include Manchus as Hua but made it clear Manchu and Han were separate ethnicities.

https://www.academia.edu/42670537/Women_and_the_Family_in_Chinese_History

What I want to draw attention to is the habit, established by the time of Sima Qian in the Former Han, of tracing ancestry back to the remote mythical past, to the point where all Chinese are descended from the mythical Five Lords, such as Huang Di, usually called the Yellow Emperor. These ideas were still very much in force in Tang and Song times, and the theory behind them can be found many places, such as Du You’s Tong dian (801) and Zheng Qiao’s Tong zhi (1149). This theory is that the Chinese are descended from Shen Nong (also called Yan Di) or from his successor, Huang Di, who conferred twelve surnames on fourteen of his twenty-five sons. These were not the only names in existence; even before Shen Nong, there was Fuxi, and he was born to a mother with a clan name. But most names were regularly traced to Shen Nong or Huang Di (though they frequently were changed several times in subsequent history down through the Zhou). Modern scholars sometimes write as though the idea of tracing the origins of the Chinese to Huang Di began in the twentieth century, with proponents of the guocui (national essence) school. Certainly these activists used the concept in a new way in their attempts to heighten emotional identifica- tion among Chinese. But the basic metaphor had been around for a long time. I could easily give hundreds of examples of references to Huang Di and comparable remote ancestors in Tang and Song sources. In early Tang they were routinely used in accounts of individual ancestry. Leafing through the funerary inscriptions in the first volume of Mao Hanguang’s Tangdai muzhiming huibian fukao I found a couple dozen examples. For instance, the 617 inscription for Wei Kuangbo began by stating that he was a descendant of Di Kaoyang (a grandson of Huang Di). The 627 one for Guan Daoai said he was a descendant of Yu (as in Yao, Shun, and Yu). The 632 one of Zhang Rui traced his ancestry from Di Shaohao (a son of Huang Di). The 642 inscription for a Miss Liu mentioned both the remote Di Gao (a great-grandson of Huang Di) and the slightly less remote Yao as her an- cestors.18 Others did not mention which of the figures in remotest antiquity were ancestors but did mention the first to receive the surname in the Zhou period. In some cases, a Han ancestor was the earliest one mentioned, but the omission of earlier ancestors did not necessarily imply that it would have been difficult to trace ancestry earlier: for instance, for Lius the author might merely state which Han emperor was their ancestor.19 He apparently could assume that readers knew of Liu Bang’s descent from Yao.20 More important to the issue at hand is the use of remote ancestors to ground group identity in the distant past. All through Tang and Song times, remote ancestors remained the dominant vocabulary where surnames, or groups of people bearing given surnames, were the topic at hand. In other 172 Women and the family in Chinese history words, giving an apical ancestor was not enough; this apical ancestor had to be linked back to the point where surnames began branching. Such accounts are given by Du You in the Tong dian (801), by Lin Bao in Yuanhe xingzuan (ca. 810), by Ouyang Xiu and Song Qi in the Xin Tang shu genealogical tables (1060), by Deng Mingshi in his Gujin xingshi shu bianzheng (ca. 1140), by Zheng Qiao in his Tong zhi (1149), by Wang Yinglin in his Xingshi jijiu bian (ca. 1280), by Ma Duanlin in the Wenxian tongkao (1224), and by Cheng Shangkuan in the Xin’an mingzuzhi (1551), the compendium of fam- ilies in Huizhou. In these works each surname is commonly followed by a statement on its origins, usually including some reference that takes it back to the most remote ancestors. Two examples should suffice. The New Tang History genealogy of the Dou (Dou means “hole”) begins as follows: The Dou surname (shi) branched from the Si surname (xing). When Di Xiang [fifth king of Xia] of the Xiahou shi lost his state, his consort Youreng shi was pregnant. She came out of hiding in a hole and fled back to [her natal family] the Youreng family. She gave birth to Shaokang, who begot two sons, Shu and Long, who stayed with Youreng. Long’s sixty-ninth-generation descendant Mingdu served as great officer in the state of Jin and was buried at Changshan. After the six ministers divided Jin, the Dou shi lived in Pingyang. Mingdu begot Zhong, who begot Lin, who begot Dan, who begot Yang, who begot Geng, who begot Song, who had two sons, Shi and Yi. Shi begot Ying, who was a chief minister of the Han dynasty and marquis of Weiqi.21 The Dou thus were descendants of the Xia kings, the word “Dou” chosen for its meanin

Han people viewed Hua and Han as based on both paternal descent, culture and language. Any of those is missing and the person is not Hua or Han. Non-Muslim Hui, Zhuang, Bouyei, Tanka were all not Han.

You are cherrypicking and the view of one person in Shandong doesn't represent the majority of Han, neither did the western missionary educated republicans who tried to force western clothing, culture and hair on the population. According to Shirokogoroff there were Manchus in Aigun who were unaware of the origin of the queue during the revolution and they claimed that the queue hairstyle was Han while they claimed Confucianism was created by Manchus which is the complete opposite of reality. Either those Manchus were ashamed of how ugly it looked and were lying or if they really believed it, it shows you shouldn't take random people's opinions as fact.

Every single ethnic group that has a vigorous use of their native language and culture, that determines membership by paternal descent also automatically excludes anyone who doesn't speak the language or practice the culture. For that matter all ethnic groups who actually speak their own language exclude deracinated people regardless of whether they determine ethnic identity by paternal descent or not. Nobody wants people with alien culture or native language to be included in their ethnicity.

Only in ethnic groups with moribund native languages (Irish and Manchus) this doesn't work anymore. Now Manchus are forced to accept the centuries old deracinated Jin era Jurchens as fellow Manchus (many of them successfully applied for Manchu ethnicity) and can't exclude them because they are exactly the same as them at this point.

I just quoted examples from Tang times about tracing descent from the Five Emperors. And everyone knew that Hua people started in Henan and Shaanxi, not a single southern Han traces paternal descent to local Baiyue because they are aware the people in the central plains and guanzhong were a distinct Hua group. Han people everywhere in China traced their ancestry from the five emperors in Henan.

The Kuomintang didn't come to power until 1927 when they tried to unite China by force and in many cases they accepted nominal allegiance by warlords who already controlled entire provinces and had popular support in them, you're straw manning again. The Taiping also weren't against the braid and they wore braids but they actively attacked and insulted traditional Han culture. The Kuomintang grew out of the pro-westernising people who were educated at missionary schools and they tried to import western values and ideas into China. You're choosing people who openly attack Han culture and wanted to import foreign ideas.

The Gelaohui and Fuguhui were not part of the Kuomintang and were part of rural interior China and the Gelaohui forcefully resisted the Qing government and western missionary attempt to shut down opium trafficking in Sichuan and had cells all over Sichuan, Shaanxi and other provinces. They were the ones who brought Shaanxi into a state of rebellion, and Hui warlords in Gansu adhering to the status quo were the only reason why that province didn't fall as well.

Straw man. You can find people in multiple countries who are ignorant of their own ethnic backgrounds, there are people in rural Afghanistan who don't know they are Tajik or another ethnicity until they grew up and started interacting with other ethnicities, they were concerned about their daily lives and didn't think about what ethnicity they are daily. There are rural Muslims and Christians in multiple countries who don't know the basics of their own religions or any tenets of faith.

It just shows that many rural people are ignorant and surviving is their top priority in life.

The Manchus at Aigun also completely reversed reality and claimed Confucianism (something seen positively) was created by Manchus while they claimed hairstyle mocked and insulted by foreigners was created by Han people.

No it doesn't, Hui people speak Sinitic but they weren't and aren't regarded as Han. Mongol ethnic identity is entirely different from Han, Genghis Khan united tribes made out of people that lived at the same time as him into the Mongol people, by definition, the people Genghis grew up with and served as adults in his army can't be his descendants. Nobody could falsely claim Mongols like Keraits or Naimans were descendants of Genghis when they were incorporated by him into the Mongol people in living memory so it was never an idea that Genghis was the father of all Mongols. Most Mongol commoners in the Qing dynasty were illiterate and didn't keep trace of ancestry past a few generations.

Five emperors were not equivalent to Adam and Eve, in the stories about them they interacted with other humans who were clearly not descendants of them.

All the monarchs (not the people in general) of those groups who claimed descent from them did it for political purposes. The account of Xianbei ancestry was changed in multiple dynastic books from descending from the Donghu (Sanguo zhi and Huo Han shu) then from Xiongnu then from Li Ling (Song Shu) and then from the Yellow emperor (Wei Shu). The Northern Wei and its successors needed to justify their claims to the throne and connection to China. It was a monarch ordering people to write those claims about where the ethnic groups originated, not the entire ethnicity.

https://www.familysearch.org/en/wiki/Mongolia_Compiled_Genealogies

The earliest genealogies covered only the nobility but since about 1600 they have included as much as 70 percent or more of the population. Many were intentionally destroyed after the Mongolian Revolution. It is possible that as much as 30 percent of these records still exist somewhere, but the figure could be much lower. Thus the population coverage of these records could be as low as 5 percent or as much as 30 percent.

Gelaohui and other groups were instigating anti-Manchu and anti-western sentiments for decades without western education. Yuan Shikai didn't care about Manchus in Beijing in 1900 or what happened to Manchus in Xi'an and he hampered all efforts to stop Beijing from getting relieved and from revolutionary held Xi'an getting attacked.

People don't think about their ethnicity until they come into contact with other people of other ethnicities. People who come into contact with people of other ethnicities every single day do think about it. Han people in Xi'an knew they were Han and knew that the people in the northeast part of their city were Manchu and they hated Manchus way before the Xinhai revolution and opium war, they had clashes with them in the markets in the 18th century and never intermarried with them at all.

Han was used as an adjective in terms like Hanhui, just like Hanyu and just like Chantou Hui (turban head) was an adjective when describing Turkic people in the Tarim.

Genghis Khan announced to the various Mongolic and Turkic speaking tribes that he united that they were now the Mongol people and he defined the rules for being a Mongol at that moment. He didn't say being a Mongol meant being his descendant. The Yellow emperor didn't say to unrelated people that they were now Hua people.

People who don't speak Han languages or practice Han culture automatically aren't Han by definition so it doesn't matter what individuals like the Northern Wei emperors claimed as their ancestors.

Lu Xun was a pro-westerniser who hated Han culture and Confucianism just like Hu Shih who repeatedly attacked and insulted Han culture but only pretends to be pro-Han and pro-Chinese culture when talking about the Qing. Both of you are posting false information and pushing agendas here.

The Qing dynasty itself was allied with the westerners who were at the forefront of modernism in their era, the Dutch East India Company. The Netherlands which promoted "religious tolerance" and gave refuge to Spinoza's people were allies of the Qing. The Qing allied with them against the Southern Ming and Kangxi and other Manchu officials tried to abandon Taiwan to the Dutch but Han general Shi Lang overrode that and seized Taiwan for his own financial interests. The same Dutch East India company promoting "religious tolerance" committed multiple genocides, against Taiwan Aboriginals in Lamey, against Banda islands in the East Indies, including sexual enslavement of children, for profit. The Dutch also insulted the fighting ability of the Qing forces they were allied with, with the Dutch comparing Zheng Jing's navy favourably against the "cowardly" Qing navy and the "Tartar" Manchus after a battle at sea.

He is pushing an agenda in his posts to whitewash crimes committed by "enlightened" modern western states while you are also whitewashing Qing scholarship.

The Qing also tried to stop Zheng Jing's planned invasion of the Spanish Philippines and Qianlong refused to aid Han and Javanese who were massacring Dutch East India company in the Java war of 1741, allowing the Dutch to gather their allies to counter the rebels. The Qing basically were responsible for western colonialists remaining in the Philippines and Indonesia. Zheng Chenggong (Koxinga) forced Spain to abandon the Moluccas when he threatened to invade them.

Qianlong's revisions to dynastic histories were full of mistakes and basically trash as he used Manchu language to correct transcriptions of Arabic or Turkic place names in the History of Yuan and totally butchered the meanings. His "lingjuistic analysis" and false corrections to History of Liao, Jin, Yuan totally butchered and destroyed the meanings of the original words. He guessed the Khitan language wrong as well when "correcting" History of Liao using Evenki to correct it. Qianlong also had artifacts written in Khitan and didn't realise what language it was.

Both Lu Xun and Qianlong were trash in fields they claimed to be experts at.

I also remember you tried to obscure and hide the role of Han conservatives in the Xinhai revolution who represented traditional values and claimed that the only opposition to the Qing was from westernised republicans who cut the queue, you tried to deny Han ethnic identity exists and claim Hua is a malleable concept that can encompass everyone and claim only the Qing represented Chinese identity and culture.

Note for anyone saying this is off topic, that I am not the one who started passing moral judgements (like on how horrific Dutch rule was), Lu Xun and Hu Shih started passing moral judgements and making false claims and I'm just responding to their claims.

These are lies, the bannermen didn't face an army of 1 million.

The Ming dynasty was toppled by rebels Li Zicheng and Zhang Xianzhong in 1644. Li Zicheng conquered the entire northern China by 1644, in 1642 over 300,000 people died in Kaifeng alone when Ming governor and Li burst damns to flood the area. Zhang Xianzhong ruled all of Sichuan.

Li Zicheng systematically destroyed and massacred the Ming military across northern China while Zhang did it to Sichuan, and Wu Sangui's force at Shanhai pass was the only independent Ming army remaining, blocking a Qing army which outnumbered him. Li Zicheng and Zhang Xianzhong's rebellion was over a decade long by 1644, Li Zicheng started his rebellion in 1630 and the rebellion by Li and Zhang resulted in millions dead from disease, famine, flooding and fighting across northern China and even Jiangnan in southern China which wasn't impacted by the fighting was ravaged by plague.

Before Li Zicheng and Zhang Xianzhong's rebellion, the Ming dynasty already faced the She-An rebellion in 1621 to 1629 across Sichuan and Guizhou by Tusi chiefs She Chongming and An Bangyan, whom they originally called to fight against the Later Jin in Liaodong but they revolted after they were told to send their families back and not bring them on the campaign and refused to give them supplies for that.

All of these rebellions cost the Ming massively in money and manpower.

Also the 130,000 Bannermen weren't 130,000 Manchus, there were tens of thousands of Han bannermen and Mongol Eight bannermen under direct Qing command drawn from the Han population in liaodong since 1619 when the first Ming officers defected to the Qing and from the Khorchin Mongols, as well as the semi-independent armies of Han banner princes like Shang Kexi, Geng Zhongming and Kong Youde who commanded their forces separately from Qing central command. Wu Sangui then joined their ranks as one of the semi-indepdent princes after he defected when Li Zicheng killed his father.

The Qing dynasty including Han banner armies and Wu Sangui fought against Li Zicheng after he was exhausted from fighting the Ming. Many former Ming officials across northern China who had Li Zicheng then defected to the Qing. The Qing army progressively snowballed and grew larger and larger as it reached southern Ming borders.

The Southern Ming forces were a coalition of warlords who fought against each other and distintegrated in internal conflict. The Southern Ming was then forced to rely on Zhang Xianzhong's former princes, Sun Kewang and Li Dingguo as their armies on the mainland and on the private army of the Zheng family on the coast, with the Southern Ming emperors themselves having no command over the troops.

The Revolt of the three feudatories were a revolt of the remaining independent Han princes who commanded their own armies separate from Qing central government, from the Shang, Geng and Wu families (Kong Youde was killed by the Southern Ming by then). The majority of the Han Green Standard army and Han bannermen under direct Qing command remained in the Qing forces during the war against the three feudatories, the Qing officer command chain in the direct central forces was designed to make it impossible to revolt (officers were constantly switched and rotated between Green Standard army garrisons to prevent a force of soldiers being attached or loyal to one officer) Green Standard army general Yue Zhongqi refused to revolt against the Qing after he was asked to for that reason, he couldn't be assured of the loyalty of his own junior officers and troops who might immediately back stab him.

Bannermen could and did have civilian administrative posts. A significant part of such posts was filled by bannermen.

The use of alphabets to systematically transcribe Chinese was started with Phagspa, Hangul and Trigault and Ricci's romanisation centuries before the Qing. And before Phagspa, Tibetan script and Khotanese were used unsystematically for Chinese.

Qing did not develop its own mapping technology.

I was responding this this sentence when talking about Qianlong larping as a linguistic expert.

No one was allowed to challenge Qialong's trash linguistic "corrections" or him falsely assuming the Khitan artifacts he had were written in another language.

You stated that Han identity is made up and is only cultural (which is false, its definitely not only cultural, you also once cited the forged quote popular online falsely attributed to Confucius claiming anyone can become Hua (that was Han Yu saying that Hua can become barbarised, he never said anyone can become Hua), you ignored the secret societies in the western provinces (who hated both Manchus and western culture) and others like them who refused to cut their hair (they hated the Qing) and they actively resisted the Republicans (Tongmenghui and KMT) westernisation during and after the revolution.

Name a single new mapping technology invented by the Qing or caused by the Qing to be invented. The Qing also gained the red barbarian cannon from Han defectors from Shandong trying to flee Ming death sentences for mutiny.

Also answering the OP, Edo Japan was technologically backwards and only managed to construct western technology from reading Dutch instructions in the Rangaku books. Japan's technology was more primitive than the Ming with the Japanese unable to copy the arquebus until a Portuguese personally showed the Japanese blacksmith how in exchange for the blacksmith's daughter, and the Qing did invent anything new so China stayed at the same level (still more advanced than Japan). The Ming managed to reverse engineer the captured Portuguese cannon itself.

You cited a made up quote and attributed it to Confucius

“夷狄入中国,则中国之,中国入夷狄,则夷狄之" - This quote is a complete fabrication. the translation is "When a barbarian adopts the way of China (zhongguo), they are then seeing as China, when Zhongguo adopts the way of barbarians, then it should be viewed as barbarian. 

this quote cannot be found in any Confucian text. this quote is in fact a distortion of a quote by Hanyu, who said that Chinese can become barbarian by adopting barbarian rites and culture, but he never said barbarians can become Chinese, he was attacking Buddhism and saying Confucius said Zhou lords who used barbarian rites were barbarian, and only those Zhou lords who clung to Chinese rites were Chinese.

Both of these were said by you and both of them were false because Confucius never said a Yi could become Hua or people of Zhongguo.

The secret societies represented 99% of the power wielding population in Sichuan and they identified the Qing and westerners as the enemy.

Ask a local farmer anywhere what their "ethnic" identity is and chanes are, the question either makes no sense, or they will use their location as an ethnic marker first.

He didn't admit he was wrong, he still distorted the text. Han Yu meant Hua can become barbarians but didn't say barbarians could become Hua. He claimed there was no racial consciousness, while the term "not of our kind" came from a northern Zhou feudal lord speaking about Chu who he was denigrating as of a different nature than them (while Chu said they were of Hua origin).

Also he called pro-westerniser Lu Xun as a "Han Nationalist" when Lu Xun hated every aspect of Han culture.

Vast majority of anti-Manchu people throughout the entire-Qing were opposed to queue cutting except the westernised tongmenghui. Cutting the queue was not seen as an act of opposition to the Qing but as adoption of western culture. The Qing themselves didn't see queue cutting as an anti-Qing act, but rather growing the hair on the front of the head.

The anti-Qing secret societies in Sichuan crushed the Qing and western missionary's joint failed campaign to eradicate opium and took over the entire trade throughout the province as well as inciting the Railway protection movement and dominating the province until 1949.

They massacred Manchus and western missionaries and opposed the New Policies of the Qing since 1905 and westernised republicans since 1912 as attacks against Chinese culture. Western missionaries were the ones complaining

The Qing weakened Siberian peoples position in regards to Russia, they moved Daurs and others away from the Russian border more south into Heilongjiang after the Cossacks started killing and raping Daurs, instead of going on the offensive deeper into Siberia and Buryatia, because the Qing viewed Dzungars as the threat instead of Russia. It was Russia attacking the Qing that forced the Qing into war against Russia and their policy was passive and attacking the Dzungars instead.

The Qing emptied Heilongjiang and Jilin, moving Manchus into Beijing and Liaoning, moving Daurs and north Tungusics south away from the Russian border. During the negotiations for the treaty of Nerchinsk, the Jesuit translators were more active in trying to secure more land than the Qing itself. The Jesuits started inserting their own words in the translation and threatened Russians with military strikes if they didn't move the border further, but the Qing found out and cut them out of the negotiations and settled for keeping Buryatia in Russian hands.

This resulted in the Russian annexation of the outer Amur region and Sakhalin which was mostly empty and later the Russians occupied Heilongjiang, Jilin and Liaoning in 1900, burned down the remaining Manchu villages in Aigun and committing more massacres and rapes in Aigun against the remaining Manchus there.

The Yuan dynasty ruled Yenisei and Buryatia while the Qing didn't. The Yuan under Kublai Khan sent southern Han military colonies (tuntian) to the Amur region, Tuva and Yenisei to secure those regions.

The Qing dynasty helped the Spanish and Dutch retain their colonies in the Philippines and Indonesia and declared people fighting against the Spanish & Philippines as traitors and rebels who were not Chinese. The Dutch and Spanish would have been gone from Southeast Asia if it were not for Kangxi and Qianlong, Zheng Jing planned to invade Luzon in the Philippines (his father was responsible for Spain losing eastern Indonesia) and in 1741 Dutch rule in Java was almost ended. Kangxi wanted to abandon Taiwan to the Dutch, Shi Lang is the one who annexed Taiwan. Kangxi wanted to leave Spain in the Philippines and Qianlong left the Dutch in Indonesia.

The Yuan dynasty actively attacked Java under Kublai Khan unlike the Qing dynasty when Qianlong refused to intervene in Java.

Also being on the Qing side in 1912 didn't meant people were Qing loyalists. There were non-rebels in the Qing military who hated Manchus. the Hui warlords like Ma Anliang and Ma Qi in Gansu in 1912 "on the Qing side" were just "pro whichever government was in charge of China", they weren't loyal to Aisin Gioro, they immediately switched over to the Republic of China when it was declared. Ma Anliang refused to obey the Manchu governor generals orders to continue fighting the revolutionary secret society in Xi'an and Shaanxi once the order came from Yuan Shikai (who became president) to stop, he did not care that Manchus were massacred there, Ma just obeyed whatever orders came from the official government in charge of Beijing. The Manchu governor general Shengyun on the other hand was angry and wanted Xi'an to get destroyed and sacked (but didn't get his wish). The majority of Han and Hui civilians in Xi'an itself decided to join the massacre spontaneously and weren't pre-prepared or brainwashed by the secret society. Many of them wanted to loot stuff.

Same with many Han like Yuan Shikai and Semu like Sa Zhenbing, they supported whatever government was in power. And Li Hongzhang and Zhang Zhidong both supported whichever government was in charge of China, they weren't loyal to Aisin Gioro either. Zhang Zhidong told British consul Fraser he hated Manchus, and Zhang Zhidong, Li Hongzhang and Yuan Shikai deliberately denied aid to the Qing capital in 1900 during the Eight Nation Alliance attack and refused to sacrifice their own soldiers and other provinces in the war. Zhang Zhidong was a Qing governor-general who served in the Qing military his entire life and he expressed his personal feeling against Manchu people, he had no connections to any rebels or secret societies.

The only real "Qing loyalists" who supported Aisin Gioro family were either Manchus, Mongol Eight Bannermen, Han bannermen or Han like Zhang Xun.

Many of the non-Banner Han, Hui and other non-Banners in the Qing military in 1912 were either passive supporters of whatever government ruled China, or some of them could harbor hatred towards Manchus personally (despite not being anti-Qing rebels).

The majority of soldiers in armies in the Ming-Qing transition didn't decide which side to join, their generals like Wu Sangui decided for them, if they would defect to the Qing, rebels against the Qing or be loyal to them. The soldiers themselves could harbour hatred against Manchu people personally.

The majority of Tusi chiefs like the Tibetan rulers of Chone in Gansu supported whoever was in charge of Beijing. The Tibetan royals of Chone chiefdom were in the Ming, then the Qing, then the Republic of China, they never raised any loyalist movement for either dynasty after they were overthrown. The Tibetan chief of Chone fought against Hui warlords in the 1920s and remained loyal to the Republic of China government.

Destroying the Dzungars also destroyed opposition to Russia in Siberia. The Dzungars wanted to rule Yenisei and fought against Russia. Galdan Tsering defeated a Russian expedition in 1720. The Dzungars also captured Swedes with the Russians.

Japan had no mustard gas, airforce or tankettes until the 1920s and 1930s. The entire nature of warfare became different, if you stripped Japan of all its fighter planes and tankettes in the 1930s it would not be able to occupy certain provinces. If you sent mustard gas, and airforce and tankettes to Japan in 1894 the war would be different.

Hongtaiji boasted he read from History of Jin and learned the mistakes of the earlier Jurchen, claiming their downfall was due to their mistakes (the downfall of the Jin was entirely due to Genghis and nothing the Wanyan family did would have saved them, and Hongtaiji's claim was false because the Jin emperors promoted revival of the Jurchen language and archery to the end of the dynasty while he implied they abandoned it and that was their mistake). Hongtaiji and Dorgon then proceeded to copy the same policies of the Jin dynasty, like moving the capital to Beijing, moving Manchus to Beijing like Jin Prince Hailing did when he moved the primary capital there. Just like Genghis Khan sacked Jin dynasty capital Zhongdu after Jurchen Mengan Mouke and the Wanyan family moved there, the Eight Nation alliance sacked Beijing in 1900 when Manchu bannermen including most of Aisin Gioro were moved there. Gao Juren massacred the Sogdians in Beijing when he turned against An Lushan's Yan dynasty. The Qing put themselves in the exact same position in a city in a flat region.

The Ming dynasty also destroyed itself due to the stipend system for royals and Yongle stripping royals of any responsibilites and turning them into parasites, not because the Qing had superior organisation. The Ming crushed its future economy at the beginning of the dynasty when Hongwu decided to keep all imperial family males on stipends and then Yongle stripped them of their military powers. The Qing dynasty were not better at economic planning. The Qing replaced the Ming royal family with the Eight Banners as the people sucking up stipends. Aisin Gioro had a higher mortality rate than the Zhu family so their growth rate was far less.

The Ming imperial family became parasites on taxpayer money. Originally, by the intention of the first Ming emperor Hongwu all the Ming princes were supposed to fulfill military roles at the frontier fighting against enemies and they were given permanent stipends and all of them kept on the rolls. The first Ming emperor stationed many of his sons at the northern and northwest frontiers and others at strategic locations. They had their own military fiefs and commanded their own force of soldiers with their own staffs. The titles granted to the junior sons of princes (generals) reflected their original role.

Unlike the Tang dynasty, which forced members of the imperial family to become civilians when they imperial family became too large and didn't give them stipends, the Ming dynasty kept every single patrilineal descendant of the Hongwu emperor and his nephew in the imperial family on state stipends where they were supposed to fulfill military functions at the frontier. Their number would exponentially grow but they were supposed to fight.

However, the second Ming emperor, the Jianwen emperor saw this as a threat and tried to recall his uncles from their positions. His uncle Zhu Di, the Yongle emperor revolted and overthrow him. The Yongle emperor then curtailed the power of his brothers and stripped them of much of their military powers, private armies and roles, starting to turn them into useless parasites whose numbers increased exponentially, drawing on state coffers without serving any useful purpose. The Yongle emperor stripped his brother Zhu Quan (Prince of Ning) of his original fief in Inner Mongolia and abandoned that fief to his Uriyangkhad Mongol allies and forced Zhu Quan to go all the way to Nanchang in Jiangxi.

The Xuande Emperor faced a revolt by his uncle Zhu Gaoxu and the Ming princes were then stripped of even more military power after that rebellion was dealt with. There was also the rebellion by the Prince of Anhua and Prince of Ning against the Zhengde emperor.

The Ming imperial family kept growing exponentially without serving any role at all, they didn't help in the military or help govern and just became bloated parasites and were the largest imperial family in Chinese history. Li Zicheng and Zhang Xianzhong led their rebellions in the northwest as people were starving due to famine, mass disease pandemic, taxation and extreme weather while the Zhu family received state stipends. Li Zicheng and Zhang Xianzhong looted Ming princely palaces.

At the end of the Ming dynasty all of the Southern Ming princes who declared themselves as emperor had to rely on warlords (who were granted princely titles of their own by the Southern Ming) for support, none of them commanded their own army force.

The Qing dynasty effectively replaced the Ming imperial family with the Eight Banners as the people who sucked up stipends, however unlike the Ming imperial family, the Manchu Eight banners were used to fight in the opium wars and boxer rebellion even during the decline of the dynasty in the 19th century (and they suffered heavy losses in those wars). Han civilians were also able to recuperate tax money by looting the property of wiped out Manchu garrisons during the opium wars and Xinhai revolution. The Qing imperial family was only a fraction of the Ming size so the Eight Banners were the ones who mostly replaced the Ming imperial family as the people living off stipends.

The Qing dynasty forced all Aisin Gioro members to remain in the Eight Banner garrisons in Beijing and Shenyang, while the Ming dynasty scattered its princes across all of China. The Aisin Gioro members received stipends but it was less, and Aisin Gioro were far less in number than the Zhu family, and Aisin Gioro members also served in those Eight Banner garrison or as officials and not just do nothing.

That would have become a huge drain on imperial revenue.

Didn't many of the emperors of the 16th century not care much about governing and just let things fall into dysfunction?

I've sometimes read the Imjin war was truly a huge financial burden. Yet, the Ming only sent 40 000 men during the first invasion which seems awfully low for what China had mobilised previously.
Why did the Ming dynasty become so weak? I know there was a crisis related to silver, but the Ming administration also seemed to have become quite inefficient.

In fact, 40,000 people were too many, because the Joseon Dynasty could not provide supplies for these 40,000 people, causing the Ming army to go hungry, and North Korea did not circulate silver, so it was difficult for the Ming army to use silver to buy food.
The total strength of the Ming Dynasty was close to one million, but most of them had to defend their own defense areas. There were very few mobile troops that could mobilize and launch expeditions. Especially when the army was assembled in the north where the food output was not abundant, the pressure on logistics was great. Compared with fighting in North Korea, more than 100,000 people were mobilized in the Ming Dynasty's suppression of Bozhou Tusi during the same period. Obviously, it is much easier to mobilize troops in the country, especially in the south, than to go abroad.

According to a Korean Drama all the Ming did was harass the Korean populace while conspiring with the Japanese .. to harass the Koreans more. 

Thanks. That's interesting. Since the Japanese sent 150 000 men in the peninsula I assume they had the same issue right?
How did this war turn into a financial burden for China though?

As an invading army, the Japanese quickly seized the grain depots of the Joseon Dynasty on the one hand, and on the other hand they could continue to plunder the people of the Joseon Dynasty.
Interestingly, the people of the Joseon Dynasty believed that they were being severely exploited by the government, so when the Japanese came, many people supported the invading army instead. But when the Japanese established their rule, they were taxed according to Japanese domestic standards, and this tax was much higher than what these people had originally borne, and the people of the Joseon Dynasty had to rise up to resist the invading army.

The ministers of the Joseon Dynasty deceived the Ming generals, claiming to provide food supplies for the Ming army, but in fact they did not. These ministers also claimed that the number of Japanese troops that the Ming army had to face was small, but in fact the number of Japanese troops was large.

The officials of the Joseon Dynasty did this because they just wanted to use the Ming army to quickly recover the country, but they didn't want to pay any price, so they could only lie. This brought a lot of trouble to the Ming army, and it also made the commander of the Ming army extremely distrustful of the promises and information provided by the Joseon Dynasty. At the same time, cavalry and artillery accounted for a large proportion of the Ming army. In addition to food for soldiers, gunpowder, horses and fodder are also needed, which severely squeezes China's food transportation capacity to the Korean peninsula.

While the Manchus often took Daurs into their military, in no ways was Heilongjiang "emptied", the Qing garrison there only increased over time, rising to near 10,000 by Jiaqing's time. Jilin was populated by Han immigrants by Jiaqing's time even before the complete opening up of the Northeast.

As for Jesuit translators being more active securing Qing borders than the Qing court, cite your source. Songgutu originally wanted to draw the boundary at the Lena River, taking virtually all of Eastern Siberia from Russia, and in the Manchu version of the Nerchinsk treaty, the disputed zone was still at the Lena River. Russian conquest of the Amur River dates to 1850s onwards (the area was not densely populated to begin with), and Sakhalin has never been under strong Qing control.

Because the Jesuits had inserted themselves as crucial mediators, they could decide the terms and the language of communication. On the first day of the meeting, August 22, the envoys agreed in principle to communi-cate in Latin. 85 According to Golovin's report, they believed that there were not enough Mongolian translators, and these were not reliable, so both sides agreed that it would be more "objective" to rely on the Jesuits' Latin. The Pole Andrei Belobotskii acted as the Russians' Latin translator. Discus-sions, however, soon became hung up on the question of where to draw the border. (See Map 5.) At first, the Manchus claimed all the territory up to Lake Baikal, basing their claim on the fact that all the Mongolian tribes of this region had paid tribute to the Yuan empire. The Russians held out for preserving Albazin and Nerchinsk, suggesting that the border be drawn along the Amur River. They heard the Manchus threaten them with military strikes if they did not concede immediately. When they realized that the Jesuits were "inserting words" in their translations, they asked to communicate with the Qing envoys in Mongolian. After a long discus-sion among themselves in Manchu, the Qing envoys said that they had "only directed the Jesuits to speak of the border issue, and not of military matters."86

Ming dynasty is multi-ethnic but on a smaller scale. The Ming had Amdo Tibetan Tusis under Gansu and occupied parts of Inner Mongolia and created the Jianzhou guard. The Ming never returned to Song dynasty borders of Han provinces only. The Ming patronising Tibetan Lamaists was supposed to be part of their multi-ethnic state.

The Dzungar tribute collectors used to regularly sexually assault Uyghur women during their rule but when Manchu officials replaced the Dzungars they started doing the exact same things to Uyghurs like in Uchturpan.

Kangxi signed the treaty of Nerchinsk and gave up Buryatia because he wanted to crush the Dzungars.

Kublai Khan placed Han tuntian (including former Southern Song soldiers) in the Amur river region of Outer Manchuria (he was only forced to withdraw them because of Nayan) and in Xinjiang during his war with Qaidu (again he was forced to withdraw them because of Qaidu). The original Yuan attack on Java was successful, the Yuan forced was backstabbed by its own ally after defeating the initial enemy.

It seems to be a common trend for people to simplify late Qing policy to one of ethnicity and conservatism when this is hardly the case. As Wang Hui pointed out, the introduction of modern science to China happened to coincide with the rise of the New Confucian Textual Studies school, which evolved out of Qian Jia evidential scholarship of the 18th century. The New Confucian Textual school promoted practicality and reform based on current needs and used classical texts with a theoretical framework to justify them. The self-strengthening movement and Kang Youwei's Wuxu One Hundred Days reform directly used and cited New Confucian Textual thoughts for justification. Even the New Policy of 1902 evolved out of the New Textual school and was not just a completely new application of western thinking. When science courses were just introduced into China, it was classified and placed under gewu, 格物 or "inquiry into the principle of things" in school, a subject under evidential scholarship, which again rose in the Qing period.
In another word, the Ming dynasty would probably have been more conservative than the Qing, since science was introduced to China through the lenses of evidential scholarship (a study that resonated with modern science), something that only matured under the Qing. New Confucian Textual studies was also a mid-Qing phenomenon that rose through the development critical textual analysis and philology, a trend which China shared with 18th century Europe (philology regarding the bible and history).
Politically, the New Confucian Textual school cited the different political systems of the three dynasties and the Qin and Han, and stated that as long as the moral way was the same, political reforms are welcomed. Wei Yuan, Liang Qichao, and Kang Youwei were all heavily influenced by this school of thought. This school even had indirect influence on Japan, since Wei Yuan's Haiguo tuzhi introducing Europe was widely read before the Meiji restoration, and early Japanese reformers were all familiar with this book. Some terminologies that China used to translate western science also entered Japan before the Meiji, such as the word chemistry (化学 hua xue, ka gaku). However, Japan had its own progressive philosophy circulating at the time (many of which is also based on Confucianism), and it was also introduced to Dutch Studies earlier than China (which is largely restricted to individual emperors like Kangxi).

Lets not forget that China and Japan are two of the only non-western states which modernized at all (the Ottomans were semi-Europeans to begin with) and their pre-existing education system being receptive to modern science and reform played a crucial role. Remember that western thoughts are something radically new and its not as simple as "ethnic characteristic" and a few "curious leaders" that could bring an entire state on the course of reform. Compared to Japan, Chinese modernization was slow, but compared to the rest of the non-European countries, China adapted to a much greater degree. Even compared to Japan, people tend to over look the New Policies of 1902, which was thorough just like the Meiji reform; its just that the Qing collapsed a decade later and many of these reforms were put to a halt. ROC and PRC historical narrative would ignore this period in order to justify the revolution and use the Qing as a scapegoat for China falling behind.

Did Manchus play a role in these thought? Yes, but probably not the simple way Han nationalists and Communist scholarship would portray. The New Confucian Textual studies, in its promotion of reform, rose partially as a justification of Manchu rule. Since the Qing did not follow all the rites, attire, and political system of the Ming, this Confucian school justified it in arguing that the rites and political systems of the three dynasties were all different too, but they were still legitimate and effective in their own ways based on their own time, just as the new Qing system needs to adapt to the current time. This was not just a temporal matter, but a spacial one as well, since the new territories with new customs which the Manchus incorporated also had to fit this encompassing narrative. So, in a way, being Manchus might have led to a more inclusive and progressive attitude. Of course, the privilege of the banner people being in power is not without problems, but how much more problem this is compared to the privilege and corruption of Ming eunuchs and Ming aristocrats (which is far larger than the Aisingioro clan) is another question; but the Manchus are certainly blamed more in popular narrative because of their ethnic background.

The Qing only required bannermen and Han officials to wear banner clothing. Han civilians like Daoist priests and theatre actors regularly and continously wore Hanfu in the entire Qing.

Yes ... most of us have forgotten that the later Qing did try to modernize and were quasi succeesfull in modernizing the navy. It can be said that the success of modernisation like elimination of mandarin exams (destroying local elites) contributed to the elimination of Qing. It was a case of a day late and dollar short.

Late Qing was NOT like Meiji Japan where Emperors edict were sacrosanct and there was general homogeneity of population and Ideas. Qing would have to start with Qianlong to modernize and be successfull with it. We could have been in living in a constitutional monarchy right now.

The palace intrigues hampered and destroyed the modernists unlike in Japan where the Emperors sides won and it took a whole generation and civil war to succeed.

Yes, but Qianlong had no reason or incentive to modernize and close what in that moment was still a very narrow gap. That is if they were even aware of the gap, and if they were in any position to close it, which I doubt. When the verifiable reasons to do so became clear, it was too late and the Qing were already in a downwards spiral of rebellions and systemic political decay. Even then, they made a pretty substantial effort, as @heavenlykaghan has described, but the deck was stacked pretty substantially against the Qing making it to today.

Qianlong had all the reasons to know and understand that Qing was getting left behind but he was too busy writing his freakin book. The performance of Qing army against the Burmese should have shown how bad the logistics and elite forces of Qing were. The disastrous wars against the Jinchuan Jiarong/Amdo were the omens of how corruption and palace intrigues would drag the dynasty down ... When Qianlong were looking down on Europeans as tribute bearers instead of competitors. His victories against the Jangars blinded him ... I believe he should have befriended them or atleast tried to. Without Jangars Russians ran wild in central Asia. Qianlong was the last great emperor of China ... his faults were as great as his merits.

Those two examples are somewhat problematic. Both wars happened on very rugged terrain which was a nightmare for large army operations and very different of the open steppes the Qing were focused to fight on, with their zamburaks, jingals and horse archers. Even then, the Jinchuan wars were major steps in the Ming-Qing policy of gradually incorporating the Tusi (preferably politically, but it ended in conflict many times), and conflict against Tusi in Sichuan, Guizhou and Yunnan was very costly, as they could mobilize relatively large armies on very difficult terrain which they generally knew well how use to its advantadge, like in the Bozhou or She-An rebellion in the previous century, which also saw eventual victory with a heavy price. Even then, while the first Jinchuan war was very costly for the Qing and the performance not great, for the second Jinchuan war they came better prepared, including the formation of the Jianruiying explicitly to fight against the mountain fortresses, and their performance was much better.

Then we have the Burmese campaigns. Burma is again a nightmare to fight in, although the Qing performance was also poor. However, previous Chinese experiences in the area relied heavily on local auxiliaries drawn from Tusi much better geared towards fighting in the area, which the Qing did not use, so their troops were heavily hindered by terrain and climate (hellish logistical supply lines, large hilly areas of tropical climate, local peoples resistant to authority, and thus unavailable to the QIng as support for the campaign, etc.) . In addition, the Konbaung dynasty was a formidable opponent, and the effort they made to repel the Chinese almost broke their state and allowed the Thais to recover when they were on the verge of total collapse, so its not like they fought off the Qing easily.

Then about the Dzungars, it was precisely the Qing expansion into Xinjiang which stopped Russian advances in Central Asia, and their respect for Qing power kept them from doing anything in the northern border until Qing decline was very evident in the second half of the 19th century.

All of this is not to say that Qianlong was without faults. The later years of his reign saw him relatively complacent with the state of affairs, and he allowed institutional fossilization and corruption to set in. However, the vigor of his youth was gone, and it's not fair to expect him to suddenly start reinvigorating institutional control when the reforms he inherited had worked well enough until then. It also bears mentioning that, due to the massive population increase during the 18th century, the bureacratic apparatus suddenly was too small, but doubling the number of officials was not a straight forward thing. In addition, many of the Qing political institutions on a local level worked with the information and structure they had during the Ming (an effect of how the Ming-Qing transition happened), and it was not a feasible thing for any official up to the provincial level to change this due to entrenched elites opposing it. They also had the problem of excessive dependence on yamen clerks, among which small scale corruption was rampant. Qing officials were aware of this (as recorded in, for example, case records of judges and official memorials), and try to work the system as best as they could. Without a massive widescale revolution none of this could be changed, and that endangered the Qing emperors themselves. Even the, they eventually tried, although they didn't have enough time before the Xinhai revolution.

Not "modernising" is not a problem. Meiji Japan modernised and the karayuki-san appeared all over the Pacific and Indian ocean rims, how is that a good thing? Meiji Japan started the first cultural revolution and destroyed tens of thousands of Japanese temples, shrines and castles. They adopted western ideas on social Darwinism and eugenics. Meiji Japan was entirely dependent on Britain and the US for military technology and assistance. Name a single weapon system invented by Japan, independently discovered or reverse engineered by them. The New Policies by the Qing were going to wreck China's social fabric and culture just like Meiji Japan did to its own culture which is why Han huidaomen in Sichuan violently resisted the Qing new policies (and the Republican's policies which continued those Qing reforms).

The "problem" with the Qing was they were actively abetting hostile colonial powers maintaining footholds all over Southeast Asia. The British captured Malacca from the Dutch.

Meiji Japan was an impoverished country and an net exporter of karayuki-san (many of them underage children as young as 13) to every single country in the Indian ocean and Pacific ocean rims. In China, in Russian Siberia, the US, Australia, Dutch East Indies, Philippines, French Indochina, British India, British Kenya, British Malaya, British Singapore, British Borneo. Their clients in almost every one of those places included Chinese coolies, in addition to western colonial troops stationed there.

Chinese students, merchants and political exiles in Meiji and Taisho Japan literally bought Japanese children as temporary concubines while studying there. In Meiji era Yokohama, Chinese merchants bought Japanese girls as maids and students like Su Manshu's father in Yokahama, Dai Jitao or exiles like Sun Yatsen took temporary Japanese concubines (one of Sun Yatsen's was an underage teeanger). This was during the First Sino-Japanese war and Russo-Japanese war. Also Japan obtained the naval codes of the Qing after a brawl in a red light district between Chinese sailors and Japanese police in 1886 where Chinese sailors went on a rampage in Nagasaki beating Japanese police while visiting local brothels. One of the sailors dropped a Qing codebook and a Japanese picked it up.

This was the actual fate of the common Japanese people during Meiji and Taisho. The common Japanese were living in desperate poverty and were being sold and trafficked. Japanese teenagers were sold to foreign men including Chinese ones in both Japan itself and abroad.

Lebanese people who were under French Mandate rule were never treated this way by the French. I would rather by a Lebanese under the French mandate than a Japanese commoner in Meiji or Taisho Japan.

Japan's Meiji fleet was built by Britain and Japan was financed by Jacob Schiff against Russia who lobbied Theodore Roosevelt to back Japan in revenge for pogroms in the Russian empire. The Russian army slaughtered the Japanese army on land (while being outnumbered), Japan suffered more casualties and Japan's economy was collapsing until Schiff's loan. Japan used human wave attacks against outnumbered Russian machine gunners in their trenches on land. The British built Meiji fleet fought at Tsushima.

Meiji Japan's military was guided, built & advised by the west, American officers led Meiji Japan's attack on Taiwan in 1874.

Japan also destroyed its culture and physical and intangible heritage for this too. They destroyed their castles, temples and shrines which were centuries old while westerners advised them in the Meiji restoration, they changed customs including burial, clothing and hairstyle to westernise their material and social culture. After regretting it, they rebuilt inauthentic copies of those castles from concrete for tourists to look at today.

Remember when the American diplomat Townsend Harris opened up Japan, he immediately demanded (and was granted) underage Japanese girl teenagers for himself and his translator.

Everything I said is a fact and not an insult. Japan was an impoverished country and many Japanese were sold into the flesh trade in order for their families and economy to survive. Meiji restoration did abolutely nothing to improve their sitaution and only increased rampant human trafficking and made it worse due to Japan opening up to foreigners and the world economy.

This is about commoners in Meiji Japan being better off than China, which it was not. How can China be worse than Meiji Japan if Japanese were being trafficked to Chinese and not the opposite? There's no other way I can express this fact. And it wasn't only Chinese but every western colony or country in the Pacific and Indian ocean rim regions.

Japan literally condoned the US occupation of the Philippines in the Taft-Katsuura agreement in 1905 where US also agreed Korea should become a protectorate of Japan. The agreement said that Philippines should not be under the "misrule" of the natives. Jacob Schiff gave emergency loans to Japan in the Russo Japanese war and saved them from economy collapse. Schiff and Strauss (who later founded American Jewish Committee) helped Theodore Roosevelt win the Ashkenazi vote in his presidential election and lobbied him to support Japan, which he did (and why Taft Katsuura was signed). Strauss was involved in helping US annex Philippines. Japan sent settlers to help the US in Mindanao.

Ashkenazi Jews like Jacob Schiff and Strauss, who served in the US State Department lobbied for the US to back Japan in taking over Korea and Manchuria from Russia and for US expansion in the Philippines in alliance with Japan, while the Kishinev pogroms happened against Ashkenazis in the Russian empire.

As I said on another thread, US military advisors served the Japanese Hokkaido colonisation office when Japan was taking Ainu land and the same officers guided the Japanese expedition against Paiwan Aboriginals of Taiwan in 1874. The US officers took heads of Paiwan Aboriginals that they had the Japanese cut off. The US condoned Japan's occupation of Hokkaido, attack on Taiwan long before the Russo-Japanese war.

Japan had no independent military capability of its own. Meiji Japan was entirely dependent on Britain and the US for military technology and assistance and was an extremely poor country with Karayuki-san appearing in nearly every country in the Pacific and Indian ocean rim. Name a single weapon system invented by Japan, independently discovered or reverse engineered by them. Meiji Japan's military were created by the UK and US and it was entirely dependent on the west for the resources to run their UK built ships.

The US sterilised South Korea and Japan's birthrates during the Cold War to what they are today and used economic threats and pressure against other Asian countries later to adopt the same policies.

This is not a few cases of prostitution and you know it. This is about rampant mass trafficking all over the region and in Japan itself. Nearly 100,000 all over colonies across East Africa, British India, Southeast Asia, China, North America, Siberia and in Japan rampant buying of underage concubines by foreigners (which was totally legal in Japan).

Historians have written countless articles and books about this and the contribution of karayuki san to Meiji Japan's economy.

https://meijiat150.arts.ubc.ca/episode-61-dr-kazuhiro-oharazeki-setsunan/

Episode 61 – Dr. Kazuhiro Oharazeki (Setsunan) | Meiji at 150

https://apjjf.org/Bill-Mihalopoulos/3814

Post Deng reforms, many of the Chinese trafficking victims in SEA today are non-Han Dai people, come from certain impoverished counties of Yunnan who share the same ethnic minority background as other SEA people. And this only happened, again, after China modernised and opened up its economy and westernised.

Dai people are the same ethnicity as Shan and Thai, and many Dai citizens of China from Xishuangbanna in Yunnan work as prostiutes in SEA, while all the Korean and Japanese prostitutes in SEA are ethnic Koreans and Yamato Japanese.

South Korea under PCH copied Japan's policies on using prostitution to grow their economy and look at what happened to them.

https://newint.org/features/1993/07/05/sex

And this was during the Meiji era. Chinese diaspora prostitutes refused to serve foreigners in most of SEA and only served Chinese coolies, while Japanese prostitutes served Chinese and westerners since they were aiming at helping Japan's economy.

https://www.thestar.com.my/news/community/2013/01/12/sex-in-the-city

Historians have written about how South Korea and Japan built their economies on mass flesh trade directed to foreign tourists when modernising, you are the one falsely claiming I am picking isolated cases. I presented peer reviewed articles by historians on how Japan and South Korea used the flesh trade for economic modernisation and westernisation.

Deng Xiaoping was told to copy Japan and South Korea's economic models and they were praised by the west for how they did it. The US pressured Deng to copy the same social policies they implemented in South Korea and Japan in the 60s including population control which the US forced on South Koreans with PCH's help. PCH sold Koreans into the flesh trade and also literally sold female babies to the west. PCH was a former Japanese collaborator.

https://www.voanews.com/a/7128444.html

Chinese who refused to modernise are bashed and insulted as reactionaries by the same westerners who praise PCH and the "asian tiger" ecoomies and they all praise Deng for a reason. They say Deng is wise for copying the policies of South Korea and Japan.

Meiji Japan destroyed intangible and tangible cultural heritage under advise from westerners who guided the Meiji restoration and are praised for a reason.

The peasants in Tokugawa Japan lived under the rule of Daimyo and Samurai and GDP was not evenly distributed with Japanese commoners. Samurai could kill peasants for insulting them. Speculated GDP is meaningless for measuring how well off people are in these types of societies.

Meiji Japan was dominated by Kazoku families who thought of commoners as expendables. Japanese used human wave attacks at Beicang against Chinese and the Russo Japanese war and suffered higher casualties in those battles. They were ordered to drown the enemy with their bodies.

Japan almost crashed their economy in 1905 and were only saved by Schiff's loans.

They weren't more technologically advanced if they use human waves to win battles. Edo Japan was less advanced than Meiji.

American forces were technologically superior in the Korean war and the short attack used in the Korean war is not the same as a frontal human wave attack (which is just throwing bodies until the enemy runs out of bullets)

Short attack involved multiple fire teams sneaking up on the enemy to launch surprise attacks.

Kirisute gomen was a legal practice, with origins in the Kamakura period, abolished during the Meiji Restoration, so present in Edo period

A popular incident tells how a commoner bumped into Saiheiji Tomo, treasurer of the Owari-Tokugawa family, and ignored him further when Tomo demanded him to apologize. Feeling merciful, the samurai offered the peasant his wakizashi so he had a chance to defend himself, but instead, the commoner decided to run away with his wakizashi, causing further dishonor. The incident resulted in Tomo being disowned from the Owari-Tokugawa clan. He later regained his honor by seeking out the commoner, collecting the wakizashi and killing the whole family.

Yes, as said, it's a weird one – and that is a fearsome story, as it happened. The bit that is possibly missing is that the commoner who ran off with his wakizashi didn't just consider himself lucky to have gotten off, but went on to display the sword publicly, and put it about he had acquired it by outright defeating Tomokai Saheiji. Which was the bit where the samurai was considered sufficiently insulted for that kind of bloody aftermath.

He Yingtian's dissertation  

'In the scholarly inquiries of the myriad things, premodern Chinese practitioners accumulated a wide range of approaches, such as cosmological reasoning, natural observation, technical engagement, and medical studies. Yet the classic oriented mingwu 名物 （naming things） studies stood out in their greater emphasis on the textual dimension of wu. Due to the unique authority of the classical texts, such studies frequently gained an autonomous development within the commentary tradition that did not form into a necessary consistency with the natural world..."

"As a countermovement to Song-Ming NeoConfucianlearning, and in particular the shortcomings in the speculative trends of the Wang Yangming
王陽明 (1472-1529) school, the mid-Qing era witnessed a collective striving for precise learning based on reliable facts. The study of mingwu, as noted by Benjamin Elman, was among the foremost endeavors to “break through the veil of Neo-Confucian interpretation.” Speaking of this intellectual movement, a salient feature was the dazzling philological techniques newly developed by evidential scholars. To name a few, ancient phonology identified the original characters from the loan character used in the transmitted text; general pattern revealed textual structures that were not discernable from a single case; paleography dissected a single character into meaningful components. All of these new techniques helped to reveal more refined philological traits behind the immediate textual appearance, thus advancing new hermeneutic possibilities beyond a literary reading on the surface. This is precisely what was going on in mingwu studies of the mid-Qing era.
"

"That said, the prevalence of philological breakthroughs by no means indicated a downplay or oblivion on the material side. Although for certain philologists such as the father-and-son Wang Niansun and Wang Yinzhi, one could indeed observe a prevailing prioritization of philological evidence over textual ones, other scholars would choose different stances. For instance, in Jiao Xun’s mingwu monograph mentioned above, the two sides were rather balanced, where cutting-edge philological reasoning and keen natural observations worked jointly for new interpretations. And for sure, there were Yingtian He, also scholars who placed a general priority on the material side. Among the mingwu monographs on Shi, Maoshi duoshi 毛詩多識 (Extensive Inquiries in Maoshi) by the Manchu scholar Doronga 多隆阿 (1794-1853) would be the best representative. It not only reexamined transmitted interpretations through meticulous eyewitnesses, but also offered a detailed account on the geographical difference of the mingwu species in his homeland Manchuria. Yet speaking of material inquiries, none of the mid-Qing evidential scholars was comparable to Cheng Yaotian 程瑤田 (1725-1814), whose collected treatises Shicao xiaoji 釋草小記 (Minor records on the interpretation of grasses) and Shichong xiaoji 釋蟲小記 (Minor records on the interpretation of insects) covered several mingwu items in Shi. In these natural historical writings, Cheng’s active collection of specimens, faithful morphological illustrations, and proto-experimental designs reached a meticulousness that was unprecedented in Chinese history, which won him recognition as the Chinese inventor of an “implicit botany” from George Métailié—and we can grant a similar title for his zoological discoveries as well. Meanwhile, the revival of antiquarian studies in the mid-Qing era also contributed to the resolution of mingwu puzzles related to the early artifacts. In this aspect, Cheng Yaotian’s Kaogong chuangwu xiaoji 考工創物小記 (Minor records on the diverse crafts and artifact making) also marked the analytical height among evidential scholars. Finally, the unparalleled mobilizing power and strong intellectual curiosity also rendered the mid-Qing court an unneglectable actor in these material inquiries. For mingwu studies of Shi, two aspects were particularly relevant: the antiquarian catalogues of the vast imperial collections, and the long-distance geographical surveys. Neither could be easily emulated by a local scholarly community, and thus offered an important supplement to the evidential enterprises of the day."

"For mingwu studies of Shi, two aspects were particularly relevant: the antiquarian catalogues of the vast imperial collections, and the long-distance geographical surveys. Neither could be easily emulated by a local scholarly community, and thus offered an important supplement to the evidential enterprises of the day. "

A point I need to stress is that we are living in a world of historical revisionism. If one is to ask a random high level Confucian scholar of the 19th century of what they consider to be the greatest dynasty in Chinese history in terms of literary accomplishment, other than the Zhou dynasty, which is THE model for all posterior dynasties; most would say the Han, Song, and Qing. The Han started classic studies and made Confucianism the orthodox doctrine, the Song had its own methods in classic studies, and most important of all, its the origin of Neo-Confucianism with figures like Zhu Xi (who organized and clarified the thoughts in the Classics). The Qing perfected evidential scholarship, clarified many questions asked about the classics thats apparant since the late Ming. Recovered the understanding of the classics in Han times (much of which was lost and misunderstood in posterity) and compared it with the Song methods. Collected all the literary works available on classics (the Siku quanshu even collected a work by a Japanese). Furthermore, Qing emperors understood Confucianism better than any previous emperor, and participated in compilation of literary works and organized them themselves. Qing conquest allowed evidential scholarship and knowledge on new territory. The Sacred Edict devised by Kangxi and Yongzheng also simplified Confucianism to the masses. For Qing officials of the 18th and 19th century, they were living in an unprecedented era probably in the same way a British person would view the British Empire in the 19th century, or how an American intellect would see the United States after the 2nd World War or the collapse of the Soviet Union. Many anti-Qing narratives are results of late Qing weakness and introduction of western theories and doctrines. The PRC merely repeatedly what the revolutionaries repeated, although nowadays there are finally different perspective on the Qing in China in academia, albeit high school textbooks still aren't much better.

The whole notion of the Tang as the greatest dynasty originated in Japanese scholarship, and the criteria that it was dynamic and cosmopolitan is not what old school Confucians considered to be positive attributes. In fact, the classic studies in Tang times are weak and simple, and the flourish of Neo-Daoism and Buddhist doctrines are considered heterodoxic turn away from the correct path. Tang emperors also lacked proper rites and mores, having too much improper affairs and court politics. The Ming was considered to hold proper rites of the Zhou better than the Han and Tang, but Ming studies of classics do not have any breakthroughs and largely followed Song thoughts. Wang Yangming's study of mind was popular for a bit, but he made little studies on actual classics and early Qing scholars all critisized his focus as being too abstract and divorced from practical matters and was the main reason that the Ming collapsed.

Nobody said that the Qing didn't know Confucianism properly. They enforced strict neo-Confucianism in regards to adultery and chastity, but were still bad since they let the Dutch and Spanish retain Southeast Asia and their hair cutting orders were against Confucianism. The Song, Yuan and Ming all enforced strict neo-Confucianism for chastity and adultery.

Scholars are just recently beginning to uncover the breaking innovations of Qing scholarship, a topic that is understudied in English and not much better in Chinese. Feng Shengli's new book 乾嘉皖派的理必科学 (The Libi Science of the Qianjia Wan School) published this year could potentially be groundbreaking.

Feng argued that the Wan 皖 school of thought founded by Daizhen in the 18th century applied something similar to the inductive (scientific) method in philology a century and a half after Galileo (what's not clear is how much were they influenced by Jesuits or developed this independly, perhaps a bit of both as they did learn Jesuit mathematics, but most of their methods were applied to Confucian textual philology). Daizhen's friend even used comparative approach to study animals and plants. This approach is known as libi 理必 (principle of logic certainty). This school continued with Zhang Taiyan in the late Qing who stated that China had something similar to science but post May-Fourth narratives in the ROC completely ignored this school of study and denounced all traditional Confucian studies and promoted western learning. This stereotype of the Qing as stagnant and outdated in thinking continues to this day.

Feng argued his study would overturn the notion that only Europeans had the scientific method and argue that China did in fact develop the sprout of science regarding to philology (its important to note that prior to Newton, European science is also largely restricted to philology, and even after Newton, philology still dictated most of science until well into the 19th century). Furthermore, it absolutely debunked the notion that the Qing lacked theoretical innovation, and that Qing scholarship was only restricted to collection, classification, and commentaries of previous works. Daizhen's school represented Qing studies 清学 that stands on its own, and perhaps surpasses the innovations of Han studies 汉学 and Song studies 宋学 and represents the height of traditional Chinese academics 国学, it might even be the most innovative period in Chinese history regarding thought outside of the Eastern Zhou.

On the other hand, the Qing did not just collect literary works, the imperial sponsored Qing Wenjian also collected information about products, animals, and plants in places like Manchuria and added to the knowledge of the local terrain beyond just the geography and mapping. Leibniz even wanted to trade a work on Calculus for the Qing Wenjian and wrote to the Kangxi emperor (which did not materialize). Indeed, the Qing collected more knowledge of the world than any previous dynasties, and compares rather favorably in many areas to even contemporary European states of the late 17th and 18th century.

Then why did the two idiots Kangxi and Qianlong let the Spanish and Dutch retain Southeast Asia if they knew so much about it? Kangxi said Taiwan was a ball of mud and was going to allow the Dutch to take it if Han admiral Shi Lang didn't overrule Kangxi.

To expand on this, one of the main reasons that evidential scholarship under the Qing was so developed has to do with the much greater quantity of printed books, and their availability. Printing kicked off in the late 16th century and reached a height in the 18th century, which also increased literacy levels in China. However, the Qing had something which the Ming did not, and that is government sponsored book collection projects and libraries that are open to the literati masses. Ming book collectors were usually stingy to share their books, and most kept their books to small circles that only included family members and friends, and the Ming government was very limited in state interference; in fact government book collection were often not greater than those of the major private book collectors. In contrast, under the Qing the government projects and policies at collecting books from private book collectors especially under the Four Treasuries Complete Book project and opening it up to most literate men in 1787 in state institutions meant that rare books are no longer hidden and private, they were shared among most high level literate men. People who focus on the destructions of books during the Four Treasuries' compilation misses the crucial point, the project was an information data pool that was revolutionary for its time just like how the internet was revolutionary in collecting data in our time. It was this sharing that was important to all. Rare books are no longer off limits to a few scholars, it was open to the public, which kicked off all types of new philological development and also enhanced knowledge (especially of geography as gazeteers is most common kind of book in the history section). One should view literary inquisition and cencorship under the Qing similar to the modern PRC internet censorship, the censorship and inquisition was so severe precisely because it is made known to a much bigger audience. The Yongle Encyclopedia is like a private book collection in comparison, with very limited influence.
So in fact the Qing government absolutely played a huge role in the development of evidential scholarship in China, and might also have improved literacy through such methods.

Except you're avoiding the fact that Qianlong made sure his trash linguistic analysis was part of the four treasures and tried to force all scholars to accept his bullshit edited versions, thank god that the four treasures versions aren't the only versions of those histories surviving otherwise we would have Qianlong's completely butchered places names and personal names and the completely wong language used for interpreting Khitan.

The Bozhou Tusi started it by rebelling, the Ming didn't want to incorporate them until they rebelled. Other Tusis also started the rebellions like during the She-An rebellion.

Manchu official Ortai unilaterally destroyed dozens of ethnic minority Tusi on his own decision and it wasn't part of some official grand policy by the government.

A new Tusi was created during the Qing, a Han ruled and Han majority Tusi (the only one), Kokang, after Ortai destroyed dozens of ethnic minority Tusi.

Multiple Tusis in Gansu (like the Amdo Tibetan Chone Tusi), Yunnan (multiple Dai Tusis), Guangxi (Zhuang Tusis) lasted into the Republic of China in 1949 and were only abolished when the PRC came. Kokang Tusi lasted until 1959 since it was under Myanmar as part of the Shan states. If there was a policy to abolish Tusis and eventually convert them all to counties then all of them would have been abolished centuries ago.

The Burmese campaign did not show the poor performance of the bannerman, most Qing forces fell due to Malaria after initial success. Burmese records would have you believe that Qing sent huge forces several times larger than those recorded in Chinese sources and in the third campaign, mentioned Qing forces completely annihilated, whereas Qing record mention the army retreating in tact, the only agreement was Minrui dying from a suicide attack to have the bulk of the forces retreat safely. Burmese record also mentioned Qing forces getting encircled in the fourth campaign, whereas Qing sources mentioned the Qing on the offensive and the Burmese bogged down at their fort on the island of Laoguantun, resulting in the Burmese suing for peace. Qing sources also mentioned that the Manchu cavalry routed Burmese forces in just about all of the field battles, with the later fearing to conduct field combat and would only defend forts. For example, in Minrui's invasion of Burma, he had just over 10,000 cavalry in three separate routes to besiege Manjie, where 9,000 Burmese soldiers were stationed at. The Burmese decided to do a sortie against the Qing general Guangyingbao in the east, Minrui's central army attacked in response and together routed the Burmese force. For the duration of the siege, the Burmese never again tried to confront the Qing army head on and remained bottled up in the fort.

Considering Peter Perdue demonstrated that Qing logistics was far superior to European logistics of the 18th century (moving over 1,500 KM compared to barely moving over 100 KM beyond their homeland without forced contributions or foraging), I don't see how the Qing was getting left behind in that area. European armies of the 17th century also could only mobilize on average, a force of 10,000-15,000 per column because of logistic limits, whereas the Qing marched with an average force of 20,000-30,000+ per column

Those two examples are somewhat problematic. Both wars happened on very rugged terrain which was a nightmare for large army operations and very different of the open steppes the Qing were focused to fight on, with their zamburaks, jingals and horse archers. Even then, the Jinchuan wars were major steps in the Ming-Qing policy of gradually incorporating the Tusi (preferably politically, but it ended in conflict many times), and conflict against Tusi in Sichuan, Guizhou and Yunnan was very costly, as they could mobilize relatively large armies on very difficult terrain which they generally knew well how use to its advantadge, like in the Bozhou or She-An rebellion in the previous century, which also saw eventual victory with a heavy price. Even then, while the first Jinchuan war was very costly for the Qing and the performance not great, for the second Jinchuan war they came better prepared, including the formation of the Jianruiying explicitly to fight against the mountain fortresses, and their performance was much better.

Then we have the Burmese campaigns. Burma is again a nightmare to fight in, although the Qing performance was also poor. However, previous Chinese experiences in the area relied heavily on local auxiliaries drawn from Tusi much better geared towards fighting in the area, which the Qing did not use, so their troops were heavily hindered by terrain and climate (hellish logistical supply lines, large hilly areas of tropical climate, local peoples resistant to authority, and thus unavailable to the QIng as support for the campaign, etc.) . In addition, the Konbaung dynasty was a formidable opponent, and the effort they made to repel the Chinese almost broke their state and allowed the Thais to recover when they were on the verge of total collapse, so its not like they fought off the Qing easily.

Then about the Dzungars, it was precisely the Qing expansion into Xinjiang which stopped Russian advances in Central Asia, and their respect for Qing power kept them from doing anything in the northern border until Qing decline was very evident in the second half of the 19th century.

All of this is not to say that Qianlong was without faults. The later years of his reign saw him relatively complacent with the state of affairs, and he allowed institutional fossilization and corruption to set in. However, the vigor of his youth was gone, and it's not fair to expect him to suddenly start reinvigorating institutional control when the reforms he inherited had worked well enough until then. It also bears mentioning that, due to the massive population increase during the 18th century, the bureacratic apparatus suddenly was too small, but doubling the number of officials was not a straight forward thing. In addition, many of the Qing political institutions on a local level worked with the information and structure they had during the Ming (an effect of how the Ming-Qing transition happened), and it was not a feasible thing for any official up to the provincial level to change this due to entrenched elites opposing it. They also had the problem of excessive dependence on yamen clerks, among which small scale corruption was rampant. Qing officials were aware of this (as recorded in, for example, case records of judges and official memorials), and try to work the system as best as they could. Without a massive widescale revolution none of this could be changed, and that endangered the Qing emperors themselves. Even the, they eventually tried, although they didn't have enough time before the Xinhai revolution.

Qing invaded 4 times. Lost tens of thousands of Manchu, Mongol and Han Green army soldiers. Generals made outright false reports to the court. Same thing happened in Jinchuan but worse. They could not handle two small tribes consisting of 5000 persons at most and wasted almost two time the GDP of China. Two times the GDP.

The supposed highlands of Jinchuan are actually lowlands. Just because they are Tibetic doesn't mean they live around 4000 meters height. Gyalorong Khampas are actually lowlanders and farmers.

It is almost same in Myanmar .. the Shan Tusi that fought with the Qing against the Burmese were locals. The various Han soldiers were locals. The southern Hans that form most of the Green army were locals. It was not until the 3rd invasion that Burmese actually took Qing seriously and called back the armies in Thailand and Laos. The Mongols and Manchus performed disastrously. No two way about it. The Qing was surrounded when the cease fire took place ... because the Burmese knew that if they destroyed one more army another Qing army would come.

Now .. the main reasons were corrupt and incompetent officials .. lying official and courtiers. Fake news and flattery ... almost all would come into disaster fruition during the wars of 19th century.

Both Jinchuan tusi were relatively powerful entities, and, in line with other powerful Tusi subdued before, a relatively large figure for their army is reasonable. A 5000 figure is extraordinarily low, and some sourcing for it would be required. It's also bizarre, because 5000 guys can't possibly hold any Qing army that is not a small local militia, even if the Qing army were a rabble, which they were not.

Also, concentration of big armies was a traditional policy to deal with Tusi since the Ming, because small armies were susceptible to ambushes, attrition and siegeing mountain fortresses was harder for them. Take as an example the 240.000 the Ming mobilised against Yang Yinglong in Bozhou, or the roughly 10.000 sent against the Ten Kings of Iron Chain Gorge in 1573 in Yunnan. The mountain fortresses were hard to take. Even the British struggled somewhat against Bhutanese entrenched defenses in the 1770's, and they only faced the lowest elevation ones just at the end of Cooch Behar, which was on the Duar lowlands.

Just because they are not on top of the Himalayas does not mean that it is a lowland. Do all of these look like lowlands?

I am being generous with 5000 strong claim. Most probably they were much lower in number. Even today if you count the Tibetan Gyalrong tribes the number is quite small even when comparing it with other TIbetans .. some 120 thousand in total and this includes Rgyalrong from Daofu,Kangding (Khampa) maerkang Ngaba and many other tribes. Just two were rebelling against the Qing.

One of the main reason Manchu had so much trouble is visible in the painting you posted .. The long Dzong like towers which the Manchu had to individually destroy.

According to "Theobald, U. (2009). The Second Jinchuan Campaign (1771–1776): economic, social and political aspects of an important Qing Period Border War", the population in Jinchuan was of 50.000 to 60.000. This means that, taking into account the defensive nature of the war, they could gather and army of 10.000 to 12.000.

That the Qing army was surrounded in the last campaign is entirely a Burmese narrative that does not stand in light of actual evidence.
A cross examination of the sources showed some problems with the Burmese account and according to the studies of Ren Yanxiang: ""The Burmese side recorded that the Qing army was encircled and sued for peace out of desperacy, this was clearly not true. Even though the Qing army was fighting hard at Lao Guangtun, they were always on the offensive, Laoguangtun is a large island in the middle of the river, its easy to guard and hard to mount offense from there, the Burmese army was following its custom of defending without engaging the Qing army, and couldn't possibly have surrounded the over 13,000 Qing soldiers. Furthermore, when Minrui lost Mubang, and Lao Guangtun was occupied by Qing forces (during the previous invasion), the Qing still broke out of the encirclement. This time, the tribes of Xinjie, Manmu, Mubang, and Menggong behind the line of Lao Guangtun were all under Qing control, this further denounces the possibility of the Qing army been encircled."
Most of the generals that died at Laoguantun were also stated to be from sickness, not from battle (unlike Minrui's campaign), which further shows it was unlikely that the Qing army was surrounded.
See:

https://www.docin.com/p-1134016639.html

Afaik one per domain – as of 1615.

Most Japanese castles today are reconstructed in some way – loads more are ruins (some still with more substantial remains, some just bumps in the ground).

There are only a dozen or so actually original feudal era castles still standing in Japan. One can check out fx the interactive map of this site:

https://www.japanese-castle-explorer.com/

Japanese Castle Explorer

The Ming Dynasty entrusted four kings and three Dharma kings in Uszang. 
The looting you mentioned is also recorded in Chinese historical materials. In fact, the canonized mission was accompanied by an army, and this army defeated the robbers：
1.上以思忠尝官主客郎中，多识贾胡，诏释其戍。赐冠带，随中官往吐蕃诸国市马。后复遣陕西都指挥刘昭领兵往乌思藏，赏诸国还，遇番贼劫掠。昭率众攻败之。——《殊域周咨录》
The emperor sent Liu Zhao, the commander of the capital of Shaanxi, to lead the troops to Uzang. He rewarded all the vassals and returned. On the way back, he encountered robbers, and Liu Zhao led his troops to defeat them.——“Shuyuzhouzilu”

2.刘昭，全椒人。永乐五年以都指挥同知使朵甘、乌思藏，建驿站。还至灵藏，番贼邀劫，昭败之。进都指挥使，镇河州。宣德二年，副陈怀讨平松潘寇。累进都督同知，移西宁。复镇河州，兼辖西宁。罕东酋札儿加邀杀中官使西域者，夺玺书金币去。命昭副甘肃总兵官刘广讨之。札儿加请还所掠书币，贡马赎罪。帝以穷寇不足深治，命昭等还——《明史》
In the fifth year of Yongle, Liu Zhao went to dokham and Uzang to set up post stations. On the way back, he was attacked by Tubo robbers. Liu Zhao defeated them and was promoted.——“Mingshi”

3.○辛未敕都指挥同知刘昭何铭等往西番朵甘乌思藏等处设立站赤抚安军民——《明实录》
Liu Zhao went to dokham and Uzang to set up post stations to appease the people.——“Mingshilu”

Then there are "Minghuidian" and "Mingshi" lists of the feudal lords and their institutions in Tibet during the Ming Dynasty.

Manchuria was part of both the Ming and Qing dynasties, and all of the PRC's claims come from Qing territories. The Ming dynasty and Tang dynasty both ruled Vietnam and the Tang dynasty ruled Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan and Tajikistan but the PRC doesn't claim any of those territories.

Nehru on the other hand tried claiming Iranic Pashtun Afghans were Indo-Aryan Hindus (they weren't).

the rest of India for a while. The Afghans who came at the end of the twelfth century were different. They were an Indo-Aryan race closely allied to the people of India. Indeed, for long stretches of time Afghanistan had been, and was destined to be, a part of India. Their language, Pashto, was basically derived from Sanskrit. There are few places in India or outside which are so full of ancient monuments and remains of Indian culture, chiefly of the Buddhist period, as Afghanistan. More correctly, the Afghans should be called the Indo-Afghans. They differed in many ways from the people of the Indian plains, just as the people of the mountain valleys of Kashmir differed from the dwellers of the warmer and flatter regions below. But in spite of this difference Kashmir had always been and continued to be an important seat of Indian learning and culture. The Afghans differed also from the more highly cultured and sophisticated Arabs and Persians. They were hard and fierce like their mountain fastnesses, rigid in their faith, warriors not inclined towards intellectual pursuits or adventures of the mind. They behaved to begin with as conquerors over a rebellious people and were cruel and harsh.

From the first century of the Christian era onwards wave after wave of Indian colonists spread east and south-east reaching Ceylon, Burma, Malaya, Java, Sumatra, Borneo, Siam, Cambodia, and Indo-China. Some of them managed to reach Formosa, the Philippine Islands and Celebes. Even as far as Madagascar the current language is Indonesian with a mixture of Sanskrit words. It must have taken them several hundred years to spread out in this way, and possibly all of these places were not reached directly from India but from some intermediate settlement. There appear to have been four principal waves of colonization from the first century A.C. to about 900 A.C., and in between there must have been a stream of people going eastwards. But the most remarkable feature of these ventures was that they were evidently organized by the state. Widely scattered colonies were started almost simultaneously and almost always the settlements were situated on strategic points and on important trade routes. The names that were given to these settlements were old Indian names. Thus Cambodia, as it is known now, was called Kamboja, which was a well-known town in ancient India, in Gandhara or the Kabul valley. This itself indicates roughly the period of this colonization, for at that time Gandhara (Afghanistan) must have been an important part of Aryan India.

genius was released to mould from it vast new conceptions of amazing vitality different from, and hence not properly to be compared with anything matured in a purely Indian environ-ment.... It is true that Khmer culture is essentially based on the inspiration of India, without which the Khmers at besi might have produced nothing greater than the barbaric splendour of the Central American Mayas; but it must be admitted that here, more than anywhere else in Greater India, this inspiration fell on fertile soil'*

The disputed area aka Kachin state is in a state of total rebellion against the Myanmar junta for decades and claims the lives of Myanmar army soldiers every month. China ceding the dispute to Myanmar has bogged down Myanmar in permanent war along with the other states in rebellion.

China gave up on the Gorno Badakhshan dispute with Tajikistan, and 100,000 people died in the civil war between people in Gorno Badakhshan and the Tajik government. Dozens more were killed last year in the same region.

The Kachins in Yunnan and Pamiris in Tashkurgan aren't in a state of rebellion but the Kachins in Myanmar and the Pamiris in Gorno Badakhshan are/were. China could cede Tashkurgan to Tajikistan and the rest of Kachin parts of Yunnan to Myanmar and it will destroy Tajikistan and Myanmar from the addition of tens of thousands more potential rebels, not China. China is fine with or without them, but with them both Myanmar and Tajikistan aren't.

Mandarin was the official spoken language in China in the Ming (guanhua), unlike India where English just became official during British colonisation. Ethnic minorities languages in China had their own status in princely states (like Tusi) during the dynastic era.

India's system of official languages is a colonial imposition by the British.

Russian Cossacks massacred and raped Daurs in the 17th century which caused them and Tungusic people to flee south and in 1900 the Cossacks again massacred multiple villages of Manchus in the Amur region and Heilongjiang, and the Amur region was resettled with Slavic Ukrainians and Russians. Pamiris are native to Tashkurgan and Gorno Badakhshan and Kachins are native to Kachin state but Eastern Slavs aren't native to the Amur. The Soviet Union even cemented over Jurchen stele from the Jin dynasty in Khabarovsk during the Sino-Soviet border clashes because they couldn't even use that against China since the Soviets had no Manchu supporters, so they had to cement their monuments too.

The Soviet Union had Uyghur puppets from the Taranchi population in the Ili valley (who were put there by the Oirats) but no Manchu supporters.

The Qing dynasty continuously stationed a military garrison in Lhasa since 1720-1912 and changed Tibet's administration in 1728 and 1751, deposing the Dalai Lama and making it a princely state in 1728 and changing it back in 1751.

Chinese troops directly occupied northern Vietnam in the Sino-French war in 1885-1885 and in 1945-1946 and weren't militarily driven out in either of those two occupations. France signed the treaty of Tientsin asking for Chinese troops to withdraw after French troops were defeated in their attempt to evict them by force, and France had to give up all its concessions in China the second time when they asked China to withdraw all its troops in 1946.

The Qing dynasty also directly ruled Kyrgyzstan and the Russian empire annexed it in the 19th century as the Zhetysu region.

Tibet was a princely state inside of the Qing with its government switching between monarchial and theocratic in 1728 and 1751. It was not a foreign state like Ryukyu.

France did not defeat them in 1885, they failed to evict them in the retreat from Lang Son. They had to parley in the Treaty of Tientsin and drop their initial demands like reparations payments from the Qing.

China had de facto control over north Vietnam in 1945-1946 and France had no way to expel Chinese troops by force and had to negotiate for their withdrawal and give concessions.

You are the one who is making up theories. There were multiple Huidaomen in the 1911 revolution like the Gelaohui who supported traditionalist Han clothes and hairstyles while it was pro-westernisers and people educated by missionaries forcing people to cut their braids.

Chinese culture had the notion of ethnicity being inherited by paternal descent which was NOT introduced by west. Westerners don't trace ethnic identity by paternal descent but only by culture, for Han its both paternal descent and culture.

Bohai, Shatuo, Zhuang, Bouyei, Tanka, Hui all fabricated genealogies with paternal Han ancestors to try to hide as Han before.

Manchus were also subjected to the one child policy. It was a guideline that minorities over 10 million people would be subjected to one child policy, and minorities under 10 million would be allowed exemptions (2 children in urban and 4 children in rural areas).

So many Han bannermen and Han bondservants applied for Manchu ethnicity that the population of Manchus was artificially inflated to over 10 million on paper and many ethnic Manchus reported they were subjected to the one child limit as a result, and Manchus are heavily concentrated in urban areas like Beijing and Shenyang which had more restrictions. Manchu fertility rate is among the lowest for ethnic minorities. Koreans in China also have extremely low fertility and a high abortion rate as well.

https://japan-forward.com/qing-dynasty-descendant-finds-her-home-and-calling-in-japan/

https://twitter.com/DrZedZha/status/1657736494788780032 

https://twitter.com/DrZedZha/status/1593292976242974720 

https://twitter.com/DrZedZha/status/1695601986534510600 

https://zedzha.com/blog/my-mother-was-a-thief

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=BZMqBgAAQBAJ&pg=PA96 

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=MdnhI-FRWmAC&pg=PA64

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=taswDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA147

https://www.ecoi.net/en/file/local/1206874/2107_1314340203_chn38652.pdf 

https://www.pop.org/u-n-population-fund-targets-minorities-in-china-new-pri-investigation-reveals-the-manchus-are-under-fire-one-child-policy-rigorously-enforced/

By the way Koreans in China are also subjected to population control and their TFR is below Han.

https://x.com/friendly_gecko/status/1643887805658185729

https://mercatornet.com/chinas-northeast-the-worlds-ultralow-fertility-capital

Ethnic Koreans (known as Chaoxianzu in China, Joseonjok in South Korea) are languishing at a TFR of 0.622 in 2010.

https://x.com/fuxianyi/status/1827874088808858032

A Jurchen called Wang Gao fought against the Ming dynasty decades before Nurhaci did, when there was no internal rebellions. Wang Gao was crushed and executed. Nurhaci and Hong Taiji fought the Ming for decades before 1644 and they couldn't permanently hold any land south of the Great Wall.

Nurhaci didn't even want to risk losing soldiers in his first assault on Fushun and gave his daughters and granddaughters to Ming defectors like Li Yongfang and to either Tong Yangxing or Tong Yangzhen, I don't remember which one but one of them was his son in law, for them to help in take Fushun.

The Qing were militarily too weak to kill tens of millions of people, Li Zicheng and Zhang Xianzhong's rebellion which was over a decade long combined with the plague, starvation, famine and Kaifeng flood killed tens of millions before 1644, which is how the Qing were able to take over after that. The Ming flooded Kaifeng to stop Li Zicheng in 1642 and it killed hundreds of thousands of people and almost wiped out the Jewish community there.

Li Zicheng himself was able to take Beijing after the plague which was spreading across China wiped out tons of Ming soldiers in Beijing. The plague devastated the population from Gansu to Jiangnan and combined with starvation killed tens of millions.

Wu Sangui and the remnants of the Ming military which survived Li Zicheng defected to the Qing and the Qing armies swelled up in number as they passed through more and more cities which were already devastated by Li Zicheng and Zhang Xianzhong. The Qing also offered a woman from Aisin Gioro to Wu Sangui's family to open up the pass since again they didn't want to loose soldiers and instead add to their number.

The Qing most likely are responsible for hundreds of thousands or over a million direct deaths after 1644 and several millions from starvation or disease caused by their actions.

The Taiping rebellion alienated most Han people because of their attacks on other religions and Confucianism. Most Han people didn't mind the Taiping massacring Manchu garrisons but they hated the Taiping for destroying their temples and attacking their culture and religions.

In the first Opium war, the Manchu banner garrison in Zhenjiang tried lashing out at the Han people in Zhenjiang in frustration after defeats by the British, falsely accusing them of aiding Britain, also I think it happened at Zhapu and they were falsely accusing Han green standard soldiers of aiding the enemy.

In response to the false accusations, the Han Green standard soldiers helped set fire to the Manchu garrison when it was being attacked. Han civilians also came to watch the British attack the Manchu garrisons in Zhenjiang and Zhapu and then looted both garrisons after all the Manchus committed suicide after killing their own wives and children when they were defeated by the British.

Most of those people who looted the wiped out Manchu garrisons and watched as they were being killed and committing suicide would also have opposed the Taiping for attacking their culture.

After the first opium war the Manchu garrison at Zhenjiang was refilled with Manchus from other places but wiped out again in the Taiping rebellion, and refilled after that, but wiped out again in 1911.

It was Han armies like the Xiang army that massacred Taiping in revenge for destroying their temples and attacking their culture and religion.

Turkic Muslims like Salar and Uyghur males also traditionally shaved their heads bald and there was nothing left to shave. The Qing couldn't impose queue because they had no hair at all. The Salars at least had to wear wigs to imitate queues when travelling outside their home area.

Hong Kong's entertainment industry has Manchus who fled mainland in 1949.

Aisin Gioro Xianyu's siblings fled to Hong Kong after she was executed for collaborating with Japan. She was raped by her adopted Japanese father.

There are Manchus in the Hong Kong film industry during the decades before it was returned to China, from Guwalgiya, Yehe Nara, and at least one Han bannerman. This is disproportionate to their actual population there. The Hong Kong film industry was not controlled by the PRC at all during that time.

The person you are talking to is not a Han nationalist and you have responded to him multiple times.

He insulted Han culture before and constantly switches his points, his only agenda is attacking China and bringing up contemporary politics about how China is bad and Chinese culture is bad.

Before he said the Qing was bad for Han and then on another topic he would bring up Qing genocide of non-Han Dzungars to push his agenda as proof of how evil they would be to all other people if they had the power to conquer western countries.

Sometime he says Qing isn't China and bad for Han and then on other threads he says Qing represents China and Chinese culture and that the Qing is evil and genocidal so Chinese culture and China is evil and genocidal.

He constantly insults all non-western cultures as despotic and evil.

https://x.com/M7tHDlLoRwUXhyU/status/1450044057833644041

Photographed in Qing Dynasty. 《Chinese Taoist priest》 Chinese Taoist priests kept the simplest and simplest Hanfu.

https://x.com/M7tHDlLoRwUXhyU/status/1450401866681044998

https://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/%E9%AB%98%E9%BA%97%E5%8F%B2/%E5%8D%B7%E4%BA%8C%E5%8D%81%E4%B8%83#%E5%8D%81%E4%BA%94%E5%B9%B4

前去下高麗國,令有司差官,一同求娶施行。」肖郁令選無夫婦女一百四十名,督之甚急,於是,置結昏都監,自是至秋,窮搜閭井獨女、逆賊之妻、僧人之女,僅盈其數,怨咨大興。例給一女資粧絹十二匹,分與蠻子,蠻子卽率北還。哭聲震天,觀者莫不悽唏。丙午,幸王輪[18]寺。

Why were Spanish governor generals easily killed and scared by Chinese merchants if they were supposedly powerful according to Samuel Jay Hawley ?

Samuel Hawley claims that Spain was more powerful than Ming China. Note Samuel Hawley is not a historian, his books aren't published by universities and he has absolutely no credentials in the fields mentioned. Hawley also made multiple errors all over his book trying to make Korea and Japan look more powerful and China look weak and they were exposed by reviewers who pointed out what the primary sources actually said.

https://greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com/2019/08/critique-samuel-hawley-p1.html

https://greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com/2019/08/critique-samuel-hawley-p2.html

Then why did mere Chinese merchants kill Spanish governor general Gómez Pérez Dasmariñas and all his Spanish guards in 1593 after he tried to force them to row their ship and then hijack his galleys, kill his son Luis Pérez Dasmariñas in 1603 and every single one of his guards and took their heads as trophies, after Luis failed in the Spanish invasions of Cambodia in 1593 and 1597. Cham merchants and Malay merchants slaughtered almost the entire Spanish force in Cambodia. Luis was the one who planned to invade China in the first place and he boasted he could conquer China with 25 men, but Chinese merchants slaughtered him and all his guards. Only the exiled Japanese Catholics and Filipinos saved the Spanish in 1603.

Then in 1662, Chinese leader Zheng Chenggong (Koxinga) on Taiwan, who was commanding a rump force of Southern Ming remnants and just defeated the Dutch East India Company, sent a letter to the Spanish governor general in Manila and demanded tribute and threatened to invade the Spanish Philippines. The Spanish governor general was so scared that in 1663 he permanently withdrew every single Spanish soldier from the Maluku aka Moluccas island colony in modern day Indonesia, permanently losing Maluku forever (the Dutch later annexed it) and withdrew from Zamboanga on Mindanao for decades, exposing the Spanish to even more intensified Moro Muslim raids as he recalled the troops to defend Manila from the Chinese. The invasion was not carried out only because Koxinga died that year.

in the 1660s and 1670s, Koxinga's son Zheng Jing issued multiple threats to the Spanish governor general in Manila demanding tribute payments, extradition and that he administer the Chinese community in the Philippines as his own subjects and the Spanish not convert them. The Spanish folded to almost all his demands and admitted they were weak and both the Dutch East India Company and English East India Company said that Zheng Jing could overrun the weak Spanish defences in Manila if he attacked. Zheng Jing continued to raid Dutch shipping capturing Dutch ships and the only reason his planned invasion of the Spanish Philippines was called off was because of the Three Feudatories war breaking out in China.

As conditions for the opening of commerce, if we trust Jiang’s narrative, Zheng Jing required the Spanish to present a regular tribute of shipbuilding materials and refrain from harassing the vessels that sailed to Manila.184 We do not have sufficient information to determine whether the Spanish agreed to these specific terms, but they seemed quite willing to go out of their way to appease him. Indeed, Zheng Jing had threatened in his audience with the priest to “immediately dispatch his soldiers to punish” the Philippines should they fail to comply.185 In a letter to Mariana (r. 1665-1675), the Queen Regent of Austria, Governor Manuel de León (r. 1669-1677) warned that “these provinces [the Philippines] are in no state to be complaining to the neighboring kings, with the ease with which they move to any altercation.”186 As late as 1673, he wrote of sending an envoy to Zheng “who might admonish and persuade him to continue the peace,” one method possibly involving the presentation of tribute.187

When de León eventually complied with the request, Queen-Regent Mariana expressed shock and horror at the decision. She stressed in her letter that “you cannot and should not” send these prisoners to him, as their “crime being so grave and averse to our sacred Religion…they were so justly condemned by the Courts.”193 She correctly believed that Zheng’s actions essentially treated the Chinese residents of the Philippines as his own subjects and grossly interfered with Spanish legal procedures. However, the Spanish officials in the colony could do very little except tolerate the extraterritorial interference and continue their policy of appeasement. Their well-armed but tiny garrison stood no match for the tens of thousands of soldiers Taiwan could muster in the event of armed conflict.194 In fact, by 1670, Zheng Jing and his officials were already seriously considering an invasion of the Philippines, and appeared, for all purposes, to be repeating the precedent set out by Chenggong toward the Dutch, until the outbreak of Rebellion of the Three Feudatories in 1674 put an end to their preparations.

The expeditionary force planned to attack Manila after the monsoon season, in early 1671. Both the Dutch and English, who followed his maneuvers closely, believed that Jing would prevail, since the tiny Spanish garrison proved ill-prepared for any external threat.95

Samuel Hawley claims Ming China was so weak when mere Chinese merchants killed Spanish governor generals and southern Ming rump remnants forced Spain to lose one of its colonies forever. The Spanish also failed to conquer the Moro Muslim Sultanates to its south for centuries right up to the end of Spanish rule in the Philippines.

Spain also lost its colony in Keelung, Taiwan to the same Dutch East India company that Koxinga defeated in 1662 and his father Zheng Zhilong defeated at Liaoluo bay in 1633 and that the Ming defeated earlier in the Pescadores Penghu islands in 1624.

Chinese in the Philippines also joined the Moro Muslim Sultanates in the 18th century as troops and wrecked havoc in raids against the Spanish in Luzon.

After Zheng Jing's son Zheng Keshuang surrendered to Han banner admiral Shi Lang in 1683, the Qing incoporated Zheng Jing and his rattan shield troops as Han bannermen and sent them north to fight against Russian Cossacks at Albazin since Manchu bannermen were unable to dislodge the Cossacks. The Han bannermen according to Qing officials routed the Cossacks in battle on the Amur river and massacred them and they forced Albazin fort's surrender. Koxinga had used his rattan shield troops against Dutch musketeers in battle after taking Fort Provintia but before the siege of Fort Zeelandia and they massacred the Dutch musketeers.

Samuel Jay Hawley claims the Japanese were so powerful, but a few outnumbered Portuguese destroyed a numerically superior Japanese force at the Fukuda bay battle in 1565 and embarrassed numerically superior Japanese at the Nossa Senhora da Graça incident in 1610. According to Japanese own accounts, the Japanese only managed to get the knowledge for musket making after a Japanese blacksmith in Tanegashima offered his own daughter Wakasa to a Portuguese man who showed him how.

Ming Chinese defeated the Portuguese at the Tamão aka Tumen battle in 1521 and at the Sincouwaan aka Qiancao aka Shancaowan aka Veniaga battle in 1522 where a Portuguese ship and cannons were captured by the Chinese. The Chinese then reverse engineered the captured Portuguese breech loading cannon themselves. Macau was later rented out by local provincial Guangdong officials to the Portuguese in exchange for annual payments of silver taels, it wasn't taken in a battle and the Portuguese also administered Nagasaki in Japan and they didn't pay rent for that.

Samuel Jay Hawley claims the Japanese were so powerful, but the Japanese Tokugawa Shogunate asked the Dutch East India Company for help with a fleet to ferry and guard their troops to attack the Spanish Philippines, while the Chinese had their own fleet and defeated the Dutch East India Company and Portuguese several times while Japan defeated them zero times.

Even in 1857 Chinese Cantonese pirates led by Apak defeated Portuguese pirates from Macau in the Ningpo aka Ningbo incident.

However for these Japanese engagements the voice from the Japanese side needs to be heard as well, which when it comes to English language materials, they are not.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karayuki-san,_the_Making_of_a_Prostitute

https://napost.com/2018/karayuki-san-in-the-west/

https://meijiat150.arts.ubc.ca/episode-61-dr-kazuhiro-oharazeki-setsunan/

Kazuhiro Oharazeki: Thank you for having me.

TG: You’ve published this book Japanese Prostitutes in the North American West: 1887-1920. And so, I’ve talked with other people about Japanese migration to North America, but I was hoping that you and I could talk more about what are the migrants (who come from Japan to North America) doing when they come over here? And what is the life like for the Japanese immigrants? So, could you talk about who are these people who are coming over from Japan? Where do they come from in Japan, and how many people are we talking about?

And at some point, they met procurers, who talked about nice things of America: job opportunities or a chance to have an American education or marry rich landowners in California, who turned out to be peasants or hired hands who forced them into prostitution. I also found that not all women were unaware of what kinds of work they would do in their destinations. Some women had already sold sexual services to local foreigners in Yokohama working as servants in the houses of Chinese merchants. Others worked in brothels and dance halls, catering to foreign sailors and merchants. And in that process, they became familiarized with foreigners and Western cultures, which influenced their decision to follow masters or procurers to the American West.

https://mainichi.jp/english/articles/20201230/p2a/00m/0na/016000c

https://nikkeiaustralia.com/music-and-a-forgotten-minority-primary-accounts-of-japanese-making-music-in-prewar-and-wartime-regional-australia-by-hugh-de-ferranti/

https://imago-images.com/st/0125609364

"According to the Japanese consul in Singapore, almost all of the 450 to 600 Japanese residents of Singapore in 1895 were prostitutes and their pimps, or concubines; fewer than 20 were engaged in ˜respectable trades™."

http://uwosh.edu/faculty_staff/earns/tommy.html

https://granger.com/results.asp?inline=true&image=0606464&wwwflag=1&itemx=42

https://jstor.org/stable/42632950 https://twitter.com/JeromeKG/status/1328642610622205952

... community of karayuki-san - women who came to work in the vice trade. The was in fact a thriving community of Japanese doctors and dentists - some who even trained locally, as well as sundry shops, drapers and Photographers by the 1910s/20s.

https://twitter.com/OleNduatii/status/1262966837047963648 Wait! where did the Japanese prostitutes go to?

https://twitter.com/MercyNMuriuki_/status/1262660540767363073

https://worthpoint.com/worthopedia/vietnam-french-indo-china-saigon-133601466

https://jstor.org/stable/29766813

https://saigoneer.com/vietnam-heritage/18611-a-brief-primer-on-vice-and-se3x-trade-in-colonial-vietnam

https://ranker.com/list/what-are-japanese-karayuki-san/melissa-sartore

https://jstor.org/stable/20072259

https://twitter.com/mellyindria/status/8385794494439424

https://twitter.com/v_j_freeman/status/306085845973225472

https://simipress.com/a-brief-primer-on-vice-and-sex-in-colonial-vietnam/
A Brief Primer on Vice and Sex in Colonial Vietnam
War loves sex. Sex loves war.
There is something about sending thousands of young, horny males to far-off places that breeds rape, drugs, sex and dominance. Money and power also go hand-in-hand, and the long history of colonization and its effect around the world today are proof of that.
The French first invaded southern Vietnam in 1867, setting up a colony in what is now Saigon, and then extended their dominance to northern Vietnam in 1887.
Kimberly Kay Hoang, who studied prostitution in Ho Chi Minh City, explains in her 2015 book Dealing in Desire: Asian Ascendancy, Western Decline, and the Hidden Currencies of Global Sex Work, that in the early years of the southern city, there were as many as seven men for every one woman in the European community, mostly soldiers. Young, male and white, they were horny and wanted some fun.
https://www.ucpress.edu/book/9780520275577/dealing-in-desire

Vietnam, and particularly Saigon, became internationally known for its sex trade. Keeping with French ideals of race, a hierarchy among prostitutes began to be imported into the cities. Japanese sex workers, mostly the children of poor farmers, were known around the world, much like modern-day Thai prostitutes. These Japanese women were seen by men as submissive, elegant, less prone to STDs, and had clean brothels.
https://www.agefotostock.com/age/en/details-photo/three-vietnamese-women-villagers-returning-from-market-at-hai-phong-tonkin-vietnam/MEV-10991574
http://www.luminous-lint.com/__phv_app.php?/f/_vietnam_introduction_01/
http://www.artnet.de/k%C3%BCnstler/pierre-dieulefils/
https://www.ebay.com/itm/123730220575
https://www.sothebys.com/en/buy/auction/2020/modern-and-contemporary-southeast-asian-art/pierre-dieulefils-photographs-of-tonkin-north
http://www.artnet.com/artists/pierre-dieulefils/
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/476396466829635493/

http://www.eastasianhistory.org/39/vos-foibles

As a matter of fact many Chinese seem to have worried about the education and future of such children. Huang Chê-ch’ing,12 a captain from Nanking, had a liaison with Yakumo,13 a girl from the Iwataya, and fathered a boy Kimpachi,14 his only child. In 1723, when he was 71, he returned to Nagasaki to meet his son. He then brought goods with him sufficient to take care of his son for the rest of his life and asked the Chief Administrator’s Office for a special permit to barter them.[55]

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=RLViDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA95 

https://www.jstor.org/stable/43923277

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=tNNyDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT294&lpg=PT294&dq=%22these+developments+in+the+latter+part+of+the+decade%22&source=bl&ots=o57QUcXOV1&sig=ACfU3U1ye5cK7o37ls01HC9CTRlc67G9Lw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj5_c2Jw5L7AhX7_7sIHcuDAxoQ6AF6BAgHEAI#v=onepage&q=%22these%20developments%20in%20the%20latter%20part%20of%20the%20decade%22&f=false 

https://newint.org/features/1993/07/05/sex#:~:text=They%20lighted%20on%20the%20Kisaeng,sales%20point%20for%20Japanese%20men.

https://g-turs.com/j-tour/japan-tour-holiday-pantip.html

https://www.academia.edu/40146397/International_Cases_in_Tourism_Management

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=OwssBgAAQBAJ&pg=PA314&lpg=PA314&dq=%22They+lighted+on+the+Kisaeng,+a+traditional+Korean+dinner+and+provocative+entertainment,+as+the+main+sales+point+for%22&source=bl&ots=SXbgbcjtDM&sig=ACfU3U2UMEuDOHT0imB5oQMAAFXvWgP-jw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjE5pyYwpL7AhUsgP0HHf-uBT0Q6AF6BAgHEAI#v=onepage&q&f=false 

https://macaonews.org/politics/%E6%BE%B3%E9%97%A8%E6%8D%A3%E7%A0%B4%E9%9F%A9%E5%9B%BD%E7%9A%AE%E6%9D%A1%E5%9B%A2%E4%BC%99/

https://news.naver.com/main/hotissue/read.nhn?mid=hot&sid1=102&cid=1011835&iid=3470145&oid=008&aid=0003529612&ptype=021

http://www.rokitreports.com/the-sex-industry-in-korea/south-korean-prostitution-ring-busted-in-macau/

https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2015/02/116_171925.html

https://macaudailytimes.com.mo/files/pdf2015/2295-2015-04-21.pdf

https://macaudailytimes.com.mo/crime-police-bust-large-korean-prostitution-ring.html

https://m.koreatimes.co.kr/pages/article.amp.asp?newsIdx=171925

https://macaonews.org/politics/澳门捣破韩国皮条团伙/

https://m.koreatimes.co.kr/pages/article.asp?newsIdx=171925

https://fairbank.fas.harvard.edu/events/living-on-the-edge-korean-brothels-in-colonial-taiwan/

https://facultyprofiles.tufts.edu/elizabeth-remick-yamamoto/professional

http://web.archive.org/web/20080705160321/http://www.rjkoehler.com/2005/01/11/taiwanese-se-asian-men-riding-the-korean-wave/

https://web.archive.org/web/20150122202620/http://www.rjkoehler.com/2009/12/15/korea-still-prostitution-paradise-japanese-internet/

https://web.archive.org/web/20151129013234/http://www.rjkoehler.com/2010/10/09/black-english-teacher-has-sex-with-korean-girl-posts-video-online-gets-netizens-pissed/

https://web.archive.org/web/20130624031010/http://www.rjkoehler.com/2004/05/27/if-you-cant-make-korean-porn-in-canada-where-can-you-make-it/

https://web.archive.org/web/20150502061329/http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/04/27/from-mobile-sex-to-group-sex-korean-sex-industry-thrives-despite-or-because-of-special-law/

https://web.archive.org/web/20150623224343/http://www.rjkoehler.com/2004/12/13/serial-gang-rapes-in-miryang

https://web.archive.org/web/20150623224343/http://www.rjkoehler.com/2004/12/13/serial-gang-rapes-in-miryang/

https://web.archive.org/web/20151211034716/http://www.rjkoehler.com/2013/05/10/blue-house-spokesman-sacked-suspected-of-sexual-assault-in-u-s/

https://web.archive.org/web/20141121212418/http://www.rjkoehler.com/2013/01/17/china-arrests-five-for-selling-n-korean-women-into-sexual-slavery/

https://web.archive.org/web/20141022120136/http://www.rjkoehler.com/2009/03/13/aids-infected-panty-thieving-taxi-driver-had-sex-with-countless-women-police/

https://web.archive.org/web/20150919163425/http://www.rjkoehler.com/2014/10/30/%EC%99%B8%EA%B5%AD-%EB%82%A8%EC%9E%90%EB%93%A4-foreign-men-as-boyfriends/

https://web.archive.org/web/20061229084011/http://www.rjkoehler.com/?p=2774

https://twitter.com/eigenrobot/status/1643958533728116737

holy cow wow ok well that is pretty remarkable

https://twitter.com/friendly_gecko/status/1643887805658185729

In retrospect, it's wild how aggressively South Korea tied fertility reduction to prosperity.

"The path to $1,000 GNP by 1981—raise only two children, sons or daughters."

Vasectomies and sterilizations were freely provided, earning you an exemption from military training.

https://twitter.com/eigenrobot/status/1643961236399312896

additional information

https://twitter.com/Jayseki/status/1643853127089803268

birth control pills became widely available in korea in 1969

http://web.archive.org/web/20220113150140/https://twitter.com/YeonU_Reeves/status/1481641406087438337
https://twitter.com/YeonU_Reeves/status/1481641406087438337

After the Korean war, over one million Korean women were forced into prostitution to serve US soldiers. military prostitution and the subjugation of women are key components to the US-South Korean alliance

http://web.archive.org/web/20220113151013/https://twitter.com/YeonU_Reeves/status/1481643465457156101
https://twitter.com/YeonU_Reeves/status/1481643465457156101

bringing this article up again. i can not recommend it enough

newrepublic.com
Welcome to the Monkey House
Confronting the ugly legacy of military prostitution in South Korea

https://newrepublic.com/article/155707/united-states-military-prostitution-south-korea-monkey-house

Horrific, that’s around 10% of the female population of South Korea at the time.

the number “over one million” is also cited in this great book i’d highly recommend everyone read

https://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/20/arts/20iht-MELIK20.html

In the ethnically diverse court entourage, jewelry was influenced by far away Iran. The gold filigree ornaments with turquoise-colored insets found in the tomb of an official called Shi Gang are derived from Iranian models. Shi Gang’s father was Chinese but his mother came from the north Asian Jurchen people. An epitaph in the tomb further reveals that his wife belonged to the Turkic Kerait community. The hairpin, the earring and the two rings recovered from the funerary chamber were hers.
Shi Gang’s father had had four spouses. One was Chinese, two were Jurchen and one was Korean. Another large tomb in the Shi family burial ground yielded a Korean celadon porcelain jar of the 13th century.

"for examples of korean wives and consorts of high-ranking"

https://www.coursehero.com/file/109673076/Robinson-Koryo-Women-and-Great-Yuan-Uluspdf/

https://brill.com/downloadpdf/book/9781684170524/BP000012.xml

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=7fcFEAAAQBAJ&pg=PA314&lpg=PA314&dq=%22for+examples+of+korean+wives+and+consorts+of+high-ranking%22&source=bl&ots=Okq5ksxkHV&sig=ACfU3U1_EgN0yBiA91T5D7nUU_uaw1NkIw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjfm5PTqc_7AhU-_bsIHUQhDIMQ6AF6BAgGEAM

https://dokumen.pub/empires-twilight-northeast-asia-under-the-mongols-1nbsped-0674036085-9780674036086.html

https://vdoc.pub/documents/empires-twilight-northeast-asia-under-the-mongols-2i7l4ccfsq10

koreatimes.co.kr
Drunk US soldier beats up taxi driver in Seongnam

https://koreatimes.co.kr/pages/article.asp?newsIdx=341135

A Japanese tourist in Korea violently attacks a taxi driver because he didn't understand Japanese

https://www.allkpop.com/article/2022/12/a-japanese-tourist-in-korea-violently-attacks-a-taxi-driver-because-he-didnt-understand-japanese

news.yahoo.com
https://news.yahoo.com › japanese-t...
Japanese tourist arrested after assault of Korean taxi driver for not understanding ...

https://news.yahoo.com/japanese-tourist-arrested-assaulting-korean-165833623.html

https://en.unesco.org/silkroad/knowledge-bank/inscription-memory-sayyid-bin-abu-ali

An Inscription in Memory of Sayyid Bin Abu Ali
The relations between China and Oman in the eleventh to fifteenth centuries can be witnessed in the existence of Omani names in Chinese literature from this époque. Sayyid Bin Abu Ali was an Omani who appears to have lived in China in the thirteenth century, marrying a Korean lady and dying in Beijing in 1299. His life is commemorated in an inscription, an important trace of the international mobility that was possible across Central Asia in this period.

https://en.unesco.org/silkroad/sites/default/files/knowledge-bank-article/an%20inscription%20in%20memory%20of%20sayyid%20bin%20abu%20ali.pdf


https://en.unesco.org/silkroad/content/did-you-know-sayyid-bin-abu-ali-true-representative-intercultural-relations-along-maritime


https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=nVVoRKSZxagC&pg=PA122&lpg=PA122&dq=propose+to+reexamine+an+inscription+of+the+Mongol-.+Yuan+period+relating+to+an+Omani+in+China,+and+to+give+a&source=bl&ots=eej3OhzrJv&sig=ACfU3U2QR9-EeZNG3VNgd_UahBODdnGKNA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiImtW3_O71AhUEjIkEHWCsC88Q6AF6BAgtEAI#v=onepage&q=propose%20to%20reexamine%20an%20inscription%20of%20the%20Mongol-.%20Yuan%20period%20relating%20to%20an%20Omani%20in%20China%2C%20and%20to%20give%20a&f=false

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=zRPbecWnkoIC&pg=PA123&lpg=PA123&dq=%22bo+ha+li%22+%22to+a+korean+girl%22&source=bl&ots=RHIhQ17h9g&sig=ACfU3U0nvfzO4o02059dmRqd3XeVTSesag&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjny8XR_O71AhUAk4kEHTFjBdgQ6AF6BAgLEAI#v=onepage&q=%22bo%20ha%20li%22%20%22to%20a%20korean%20girl%22&f=false

The Emperor ( namely Yuan Cheng Zhong ] married him to a Korean girl . ... identified Bu A Li ( Abu'Ali ) of Yuan Shi with Bo Ha Li of the Korean source .

"For intermarriage between semuren men (including those of Turkic, Uyghur, and Indian descent) and Korean women, see Ma Juan, “Yuandai semu Gaoli tonghun juli.” 182. Quan Heng and Ren Chongyue, Gengshen waishi jianzheng, p."

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=7fcFEAAAQBAJ&pg=PA315&lpg=PA315&dq=%22For+intermarriage+between+semuren+men+(including+those+of+Turkic,+Uyghur,+and+Indian+descent)+and+Korean+women,+see+Ma+Juan,+%E2%80%9CYuandai+semu+Gaoli+tonghun+juli.%E2%80%9D+182.+Quan+Heng+and+Ren+Chongyue,+Gengshen+waishi+jianzheng,+p.%22&source=bl&ots=Oko4fkBjFP&sig=ACfU3U02-BSk6mr98FvxKM7PK2mkCk1oxw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjK-a2osNv2AhWETt8KHaPdCN8Q6AF6BAgCEAM

https://dokumen.pub/empires-twilight-northeast-asia-under-the-mongols-1nbsped-0674036085-9780674036086.html

https://vdoc.pub/documents/empires-twilight-northeast-asia-under-the-mongols-2i7l4ccfsq10

https://books.google.com › books
Empire's Twilight: Northeast Asia under the Mongols
David M. Robinson — 2020 · History
... and Indian descent) and Korean women, see Ma Juan, “Yuandai semu Gaoli tonghun juli.” 182. Quan Heng and Ren Chongyue, Gengshen waishi jianzheng, p.
https://dokumen.pub › ...
Empire's Twilight. Northeast Asia under the Mongols [1 ed.] 0674036085, 9780674036086 - DOKUMEN.PUB
... the Liaoyang Branch Secretariat (Liaoyangsheng Menggu Gaoli Zhaozhou san ... descent) and Korean women, see Ma Juan, “Yuandai semu Gaoli tonghun juli.
https://vdoc.pub › documents
Empire's Twilight. Northeast Asia Under The Mongols [PDF ...
... the Liaoyang Branch Secretariat (Liaoyangsheng Menggu Gaoli Zhaozhou san ... descent) and Korean women, see Ma Juan, “Yuandai semu Gaoli tonghun juli.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=7fcFEAAAQBAJ&pg=PA315&lpg=PA315&dq=%22For+intermarriage+between+semuren+men+(including+those+of+Turkic,+Uyghur,+and+Indian+descent)+and+Korean+women,+see+Ma+Juan,%22&source=bl&ots=Oko0hryjGU&sig=ACfU3U3M2lByK_MLsI1Kgp_1K9eOiP3q_A&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj6t9Hu3e71AhX6k4kEHbZqCSkQ6AF6BAgDEAI#v=onepage&q=%22For%20intermarriage%20between%20semuren%20men%20(including%20those%20of%20Turkic%2C%20Uyghur%2C%20and%20Indian%20descent)%20and%20Korean%20women%2C%20see%20Ma%20Juan%2C%22&f=false

https://dokumen.pub/empires-twilight-northeast-asia-under-the-mongols-1nbsped-0674036085-9780674036086.html

Koryŏ women were inseparable from the popularity of things Korean. The first waves of Koryŏ women into the Mongol empire arrived as captives seized during the bloody fighting of the mid-thirteenth century. These women were variously used as slaves, married to recently surrendered Southern Song soldiers, or distributed as war booty to Mongol warriors. Late in the thirteenth century, Qubilai and other Mongol aristocrats began to demand women from elite Koryŏ families as wives and consorts. Despite initial efforts to avoid these demands, the Korean government eventually responded by establishing government bureaus to organize and control the flow of Koryŏ women to the Mongol empire. What had begun as the seizure of women as war booty evolved into a complex system of formal tribute between the ruling houses of Koryŏ and the Mongol empire. Yuan envoys regularly traveled to Koryŏ to secure women on behalf of the emperor, who often redistributed them as gifts to leading ministers. Yuan envoys and Yuan officials stationed in Koryŏ also requested Koryŏ brides for themselves.179 The number of Koryŏ women in Daidu increased steadily over the late thirteenth and first half of the fourteenth centuries. Nearly 1,500 Koryŏ tribute women are noted in official Yuan and Koryŏ court annals. The actual number of women was certainly much higher since

Northeast Asia and the Mongol Empire

53

elite Koryŏ women nearly always traveled with their own maids and servants. Lesser-known women were not deemed sufficiently significant to merit mention in official records.180 Many Koreans married their womenfolk to members of the Yuan elite as a way to secure official posts and advance family interests. Mongolian, Muslim, and Uyghur elites appreciated Koryŏ beauties, and the acquisition of Korean concubines became something of a fad.181

For examples of Korean wives and consorts of high-ranking Mongol and Chinese officials, see Kim Sang-gi, Sinp’yŏn Koryŏ sidaesa, p. 575. For more

Notes to Pages 53–56

315

extensive discussion, see Xi Lei, Yuandai Gaoli gongnü zhidu yanjiu, pp. 136–58. For intermarriage between semuren men (including those of Turkic, Uyghur, and Indian descent) and Korean women, see Ma Juan, “Yuandai semu Gaoli tonghun juli.” 182. Quan Heng and Ren Chongyue, Gengshen waishi jianzheng, p. 96; cited in Shi Weimin, Dushizhong de youmumin, p. 106. On the Mongols’ preference for Korean serving girls, see the early Ming writer Ye Ziqi, “Za zhi pian” 雜制篇, Cao mu zi, juan 3 xia, p. 63. 183. Shi Weimin, Dushizhong de youmumin, pp. 106–17. 184. Quan Heng, Gengshen waishi, xia.9b

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=7fcFEAAAQBAJ&pg=PA52&lpg=PA52&dq=%22The+first+waves+of+Kory%C5%8F+women+into+the+Mongol+empire+arrived+as+captives+seized+during+the+bloody+fighting+of+the+mid-thirteenth+century.+These+women+were+variously+used+as+slaves,+married+to+recently+surrendered+Southern+Song+soldiers,+or+distributed+as+war+booty+to+Mongol+warriors.%22&source=bl&ots=Oko0hrymFW&sig=ACfU3U2M2omqBYhqdmfkBxZHRYsoz4EXmA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwianOj53u71AhURSN8KHS2XAUYQ6AF6BAgDEAI#v=onepage&q=%22The%20first%20waves%20of%20Kory%C5%8F%20women%20into%20the%20Mongol%20empire%20arrived%20as%20captives%20seized%20during%20the%20bloody%20fighting%20of%20the%20mid-thirteenth%20century.%20These%20women%20were%20variously%20used%20as%20slaves%2C%20married%20to%20recently%20surrendered%20Southern%20Song%20soldiers%2C%20or%20distributed%20as%20war%20booty%20to%20Mongol%20warriors.%22&f=false

The Mongols taking Korean girls and eunuchs appears right in Korea's own historical records and the Yuan. In Korea's Goryosa and Dongguk Tonggam both of which were written by Koreans in Joseon.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/41649921?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

The Mongols demanded a huge tribute in girls, women and eunuchs from Korea. Mongols forced Korea to pay a huge annual tribute in Korean girl virgins and Korean boy eunuchs for the Mongol harems. The Korean Empress Gi was a tribute girl sent to the Mongol emperor as a concubine and her Korean eunuch Pak Bulhwa was sent as tribute.

Mongols gave women to Han Chinese defectors. Mongol women were married to Han officers and captured Korean women were distributed to Han footsoldiers who defected.

Over half the Mongol empire's army against the Jin Han Chinese from the Han Chinese tumen armies of Shi Tianze, Zhang Hongfan, Zhang Rou.

The Mongols only occupied Beijing and other points in the north and demanded Korea pay tribute in Korean women as states in the Korean history book Goryeosa which was never been written or edited in China. Direct quotes from Goryeosa and Robinson's book, neither of them Chinese.

The Persian Rashid Al-din also wrote the Song Emperor Gong was son in law to Kublai Khan after marrying the Mongol princes.

The Han tumen General Shi Tianze's son Shi Gang married a Mongol Kerait woman.

https://twitter.com/YeonU_Reeves/status/1481641406087438337

After the Korean war, over one million Korean women were forced into prostitution to serve US soldiers. military prostitution and the subjugation of women are key components to the US-South Korean alliance

https://twitter.com/YeonU_Reeves/status/1481643465457156101

bringing this article up again. i can not recommend it enough

newrepublic.com
Welcome to the Monkey House
Confronting the ugly legacy of military prostitution in South Korea

https://newrepublic.com/article/155707/united-states-military-prostitution-south-korea-monkey-house

Horrific, that’s around 10% of the female population of South Korea at the time.

the number “over one million” is also cited in this great book i’d highly recommend everyone read

"She is the dutiful daughter who works to support the very same family that shuns her, the serviceman's wife who becomes her family's hope for the future, the protective mother who hides her past from her children. She is a representation of over a million Korean women who have worked in prostitution for the U.S. military and of over 100,000 who have married American GIs. She is a representation of these real Korean women, and yet still a figure built out of layers of collective trauma and fantasy. The Korean woman who provides her sexual labor to Americans, whether through marriage or prostitution, paradoxically emerges as the ghostly figure of all that has been erased."

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:O4tml19Gm1AJ:https://www.tumblr.com/tagged/korean%2Bdiaspora%3Fsort%3Dtop

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Bv8OFhTb97cJ:https://www.tumbral.com/tag/korean%2520diaspora

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:C9SJ__OyQyoJ:https://www.tumbral.com/tag/tcbp

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=VagzEDjnZpcC&pg=PA4&lpg=PA4&dq=%22She+is+the+dutiful+daughter+who+works+to+support+the+very+same+family+that+shuns+her,+the+serviceman%27s+wife+who+becomes+her+family%27s+hope+for+the+future,+the+protective+mother+who+hides+her+past+from+her+children.+She+is+a+representation+of+over+a+million+Korean+women+who+have+worked+in+prostitution+for+the+U.S.+military+and+of+over+100,000+who+have+married+American+GIs.+She+is+a+representation+of+these+real+Korean+women,+and+yet+still+a+figure+built+out+of+layers+of+collective+trauma+and+fantasy.+The+Korean+woman+who+provides+her+sexual+labor+to+Americans,+whether+through+marriage+or+prostitution,+paradoxically+emerges+as+the+ghostly+figure+of+all+that+has+been+erased.%22&source=bl&ots=c9Q-K63W0s&sig=ACfU3U1327FkhQ9edWr5-3Gt7VY8sKJe_g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjZ5MPl6rL1AhUjlYkEHaV7CAsQ6AF6BAgCEAM

https://twitter.com/FKhorosani/status/1491851578940215298

"River Where the Moon Rises" is a South Korean television series that tells the love story between Korean princess Pyeonggang and General Ondal. Ondal is portrayed as Korean, but researcher Ji Bae-sun from the Institute of Korean Studies at Yonsei University disagrees 1/2
#Tajiks

https://twitter.com/FKhorosani/status/1491851583990161411

He argues that Ondal was in fact a Sogdian (ancestor of modern #Tajiks). Researcher Ji Bae-sun developed this theory after coming across some evidence in Chinese books and records from the Tang Dynasty that suggested a Sogdian origin for Ondal 2/3

https://twitter.com/FKhorosani/status/1491851588436172804

"The story of Princess Pyeonggang and Ondal is about a forbidden marriage that transcends social classes, and is one of the most romantic stories in Korean history" 3/3

https://twitter.com/FKhorosani/status/1491851590755663872

Source:

https://koreajoongangdaily.joins.com/2021/03/02/entertainment/television/Ondal-River-where-the-Moon-Rises-Pyeonggang/20210302153708846.html?fbclid=IwAR30Uw9WEqMy-kzQw9VuV6pOGA6gvH0bQej_ISxfyMOsPxrjPKnweLS7uVg

Source:
koreajoongangdaily.joins.com
KBS drama raises questions about the 6th century Korean Romeo

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:cFG-XLTTjkwJ:https://docero.com.br/doc/80vex

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:6d3aPFYk5WkJ:https://www.tumgir.com/tag/graduate%2520book%2520quote

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:NQ-PCs8P0H8J:https://www.tumgir.com/tag/tcbp

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:bMFW3uDFEScJ:https://www.tumgir.com/tag/teach%2520me%2520korean

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Glf0XcGpsdEJ:https://www.tumgir.com/tag/teaching%2520korean

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:-vwfX1SrZAEJ:https://www.tumgir.com/tag/asian%2520winds
https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:5T2PzrhGcOIJ:https://www.tumbral.com/tag/Korean%2520diaspora

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:xzolZc_xuA8J:https://www.tumgir.com/tag/THE%2520WIND%2520WAS%2520KNOCKED%2520OUTTA%2520ME

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:jd5U5Z9Z_IcJ:https://pdfcoffee.com/cho-g-m-haunting-the-korean-diaspora-pdf-free.html

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:tFi_OSIO458J:https://am.lk1lib.org/book/812299/1f2686

https://u1lib.org/book/812299/1f2686

https://pdf.zlibcdn.com/dtoken/28122d897d41a5413637a8b3824959a7/Haunting_the_Korean_Diaspora_Shame,_Secrecy,_and__812299_(z-lib.org).pdf

https://img2.docero.com.br/image/l/80vex.png

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:HP00Jw_8UqgJ:https://www.islamawareness.net/Asia/KoreaSouth/ks_article101.pdf

https://www.islamawareness.net/Asia/KoreaSouth/ks_article101.pdf

networks of the period.During the late Goryeo period when Goryeo became a tributary state of the Mongol Empire,the denomination of Muslim identity was changed from someone from daesik to hoehoe (huihui inChinese),9 a term commonly used for Chinese Muslims or Muslims naturalised in China. Epitomisingthe change of mode of contacts between Koreans and Muslims over a long period of time, the termindicates the stability and importance of the Muslim status in Yuan China and the Mongol Empire ingeneral. It reflects the intensity of Muslims’ involvement in local life over time. If the early stage ofcultural encounters between Muslims and Koreans started in the guise of trade and commerce asepitomised in the term daesik, then the presence of Muslims in the late medieval Korean society wasintensified by the use of hoehoe, meaning that they were sharing a common geographical space, co-existing and competing with locals for personal advancement.In Korean historical documents, the term hoehoe was first used in the second half of the 13thcentury during the late Goryeo period when the dynasty was in the Mongol-Yuan political sphere.With no mention of their ethnicity or place of their ancestral origin, hoehoe in this article meansMuslims of any origin settled in Korea. The degree of their settlement and the extent of theiracculturation would depend on each individual case. In cases of completely voluntary integration,some hoehoe were allowed to take local surnames, marrying Korean women, and eventually beingprogenitors of certain clans, which survive to this day. It is apparent, however, that most hoehoe inKorea kept their religious conventions that were noticeably different from local rites in their ownreligious place, called Yedang (Ceremonial Hall).

https://eprints.soas.ac.uk/26513/1/4404_Han.pdf

Foreign semen spawn in Korean wombs.

Korean clan names of foreign origin

https://eprints.soas.ac.uk/26513/1/4404_Han.pdf


4404_Han.pdf - SOAS Research Onlinehttps://eprints.soas.ac.uk › 4404_HanPDF
by ISK Han · 2016 — Korean, Chinese and Japanese names appear with surnames listed first, ... Jang Sun-ryong was originally a hoehoe and his original name was Samga

http://askakorean.blogspot.com/2008/11/ancient-yellow-fever-sold-here.html


Byeokran-do was frequented by hundreds of Arabian merchants, who were known to trade with China via sea. In fact, historians usually credit these merchants for the name “Korea”, a derivation of Goryeo. Koreans called the merchants saekmok’in, “people with colored eyes.”

Historical records show at least one Arabian merchant staying Korea, presumably marrying a local Korean woman. The Goryeo king awarded him a Korean name of Jang Sunryong, who became the starting point of Deoksu Jang clan. (More discussion about Korean surnames here.) The Korean would not be surprised if there were many more such cases not recorded into history. The picture is Goryeo people's rendition of the Arabian merchants. (Source)


Another instance of non-East Asian immigration is with a person named Seol Son. Seol was an ethnic Uyghur, who live in what is now western China, bordering the “stan” countries. He had an official position in China, and immigrated to Korea in order to run away from a rebellion in 1358. He received an official position and a surname from the Korean king.
Goryeo was clearly more open to overseas trade than the dynasty followed, i.e. Joseon dynasty. Joseon was dubbed the “hermit kingdom”, as it sought self-sufficiency with minimal foreign contact. But there was at least two prominent occasions in which non-East Asians came, stayed and got married in Korea. Interestingly, they were both Dutch.

The first was a man named Jan Janse Weltevree. He was a Dutch sailor working on a ship that sailed between Jakarta, Indonesia (which at that time was a Dutch colony) and Nagasaki, Japan. In 1627, he and two of his shipmates were shipwrecked on the coast Jeju Island, the southernmost island of Korea. They were caught and sent to Hanyang, i.e. modern-day Seoul.

Weltevree and his shipmates worked as firearms instructors for the Korean military, and fought in a war against China in 1636. Only Weltevree survived the war. The Korean king at the time recognized his bravery, gave him a name Bak Yeon. (Bak = Park in many cases.) He married a Korean woman, and had one son and one daughter.

The second occasion was another group of Dutch sailors, a whopping 35 of them. The most famous one was a man named Hendrick Hamel, who eventually left/escaped Korea to return to Netherlands after thirteen years along with seven of his cohorts. Hamel later wrote a book about his experience, which ended up becoming the first book in Europe about Korea. (Source)

Similar to Weltevree, they were shipwrecked in Jeju Island in 1653, when Weltevree was 58. In fact, when the Dutch sailors were captured, Weltevree was asked to be an interpreter. Hamel's journal indicates that Weltevree's Dutch, after decades of inaction, was so poor that Hamel did not recognize it as a language at first. Korean historical records indicate that at least 10 of the 35 Dutch sailors married Korean women and settled in southwestern Korea.

Han Chinese and Hui Ming dynasty loyalists like Sanggok Ma clan impregnating Korean women in Joseon.

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:G_QPOg2K5-4J:https://bohnet.kingsfaculty.ca/bohnet/assets/File/JEMH_015_06_477-505.pdf

Han Chinese and Central Asian Hui Semu Tammachi army men came to Korea in the retinue of Mongol princesses as human dowry and married Korean women and founded new clans.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:S78oJ74vdY0J:www.sciea.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/03_JIN.pdf

Here is the comprehensive list of Korean last names with Chinese origin - meaning the surname was adopted through Chinese immigrant to Korea. Of the surnames of foreign origins, Chinese surnames are the most numerous followed by Japanese - 9, Jurchen - 1, Mongol - 2, Uyghur - 4, Vietnam - 2, India - 1, Thailand - 1, Dutch - 2, etc.

In terms of % of population, the descendants of these foreign last name make up about 10% of Korean population.

한국의 외래 귀화 성씨 - 위키백과, 우리 모두의 백과사전

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/69f3/0ae85afc24f709bf81ad47a8d29858842bf0.pdf
From Liaodongese Refugee to Ming Loyalist: The Historiography of the Sanggok Ma, a Ming Migrant Descent Group in Late Joseon Korea

https://newint.org/features/1993/07/05/sex#:~:text=They%20lighted%20on%20the%20Kisaeng,sales%20point%20for%20Japanese%20men.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/43923277

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=tNNyDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT294&lpg=PT294&dq=%22these+developments+in+the+latter+part+of+the+decade%22&source=bl&ots=o57QUcXOV1&sig=ACfU3U1ye5cK7o37ls01HC9CTRlc67G9Lw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj5_c2Jw5L7AhX7_7sIHcuDAxoQ6AF6BAgHEAI#v=onepage&q=%22these%20developments%20in%20the%20latter%20part%20of%20the%20decade%22&f=false 

https://g-turs.com/j-tour/japan-tour-holiday-pantip.html

https://www.academia.edu/40146397/International_Cases_in_Tourism_Management

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=OwssBgAAQBAJ&pg=PA314&lpg=PA314&dq=%22They+lighted+on+the+Kisaeng,+a+traditional+Korean+dinner+and+provocative+entertainment,+as+the+main+sales+point+for%22&source=bl&ots=SXbgbcjtDM&sig=ACfU3U2UMEuDOHT0imB5oQMAAFXvWgP-jw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjE5pyYwpL7AhUsgP0HHf-uBT0Q6AF6BAgHEAI#v=onepage&q&f=false 



https://www.npr.org/2022/12/09/1141912093/south-korea-adoptees-fraud-investigation-western-families

>About 200,000 South Koreans, mostly girls, were adopted overseas during the past six decades, mainly to white parents in the United States and Europe.

https://www.vk.com/wall-52136985_52924

Иccлeдoвaния пoлитичecких пpoцeccoв нa Bocтoкe
11 Mar 2023
·
from Grigory Lukyanov
Norma, Caroline. Comfort Women and Post-Occupation Corporate Japan. Routledge, 2018. 182 p.

This book provides an overview of the Japanese sex industry in the years of Japan’s postwar economic boom. It argues that the origins of gender inequality in contemporary Japan resulted from the policies put in place during this period, when there was instituted a “sexual contract” which provided male salarymen whose work was arduous, underpaid and subject to military-like organisation with easy access to women’s bodies, through workplace getaway trips to hot springs resorts, hostess bars, and prostitution tourism to South Korea, as sexual inducement to acquiesce to their own exploitation. Japan’s economic growth, the book thereby contends, came at the price not just of environmental and labour degradation, but also gender inequality.

Thanks to - ИCTOPИЧECКИE ИCTOЧHИКИ -

#Japan@politvostok , #Colonialism@politvostok

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https://www.taylorfrancis.com/chapters/mono/10.4324/9781351185271-6/corporate-kisaeng-prostitution-tourism-caroline-norma

HomeArea StudiesAsian StudiesJapanese StudiesJapanese HistoryComfort Women and Post-Occupation Corporate JapanCorporate kisaeng prostitution tourism
Corporate kisaeng prostitution tourism
Chapter
Corporate kisaeng prostitution tourism
ByCaroline Norma
Book
Comfort Women and Post-Occupation Corporate Japan
Edition1st Edition
First Published2018
ImprintRoutledge
Pages21
Share
Share
ABSTRACT
Prostitution tourism to South Korea in the early 1970s was a third corporate activity emerging in the high growth era that facilitated salaried men's sexual access to working class women. In these years, large numbers of Japanese white collar men prostituted South Korean women as hostesses, called kisaeng, either during business trips to Korea or as part of package tours awarded as bonuses by Japanese companies to their employees as prizes for reaching sales targets. Tightening profit margins in the late 1960s forced Japanese companies and their sponsoring state to look overseas for opportunities to acquire market share, negotiate arrangements for direct foreign investment, and secure cheap sources of labour and goods. Even before this, moreover, the Japanese imperial government enacted a law in colonial Korea that legalised prostitution soon after it assumed control over the country in 1910.
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Japanese raped Vietnamese women in north Vietnam

https://read.dukeupress.edu/journal-of-asian-studies/article-abstract/83/3/619/388591/In-Search-of-Vietnam-s-Comfort-WomenNew-Materials?redirectedFrom=fulltext 

Translations on North Vietnamhttps://books.google.co.uk › books
1971 · Vietnam (Democratic Republic)
Wherever they went , the Japanese forces burned down homes , murdered law - abiding citizens , raped women , and stole possessions , The " san kuang ...

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=sTrcAAAAIAAJ&pg=RA2-PA9&lpg=RA2-PA9&dq=%22Wherever+they+went+,+the+Japanese+forces+burned+down+homes%22&source=bl&ots=LZK_Uau32R&sig=ACfU3U1IGFdWHi1oXPlGGsogUo-Tadb-UQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi18svl9fP3AhV2gnIEHc2vBVgQ6AF6BAgFEAM
https://hung-viet.org/a5222/doi-thoai-nam-2000

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=sTrcAAAAIAAJ&pg=RA2-PA9

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=zdloDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA61

https://sg.news.yahoo.com/60-years-japan-army-husband-fled-vietnam-war-074526016.html


https://indomemoires.hypotheses.org/23318


http://www.endofempire.asia/0817-6-the-great-vietnam-famine-4/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_Famine_of_1945

https://apjjf.org/2011/9/5/Geoffrey-Gunn/3483/article.html

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/modern-asian-studies/article/japans-role-in-the-vietnamese-starvation-of-194445/8A5205371AAECFB6D6CBE8AD7F70C41F

https://japanesevietnam.weebly.com/vietnamese-famine-of-1945.html

https://www.akg-images.com/archive/-2UMEBM2Y85NV.html

https://quod.lib.umich.edu/t/tap/7977573.0003.202/--good-the-bad-and-the-not-beautiful-in-the-street?rgn=main;view=fulltext

A new Japanese documentary “Kurokawa no Onnatachi” (“In Their Own Words: The Women of Kurokawa”) has been released on Japanese girls from the Kurokawa settlers' village who were used for sexual intercourse by the Soviet army when the Soviets crushed the Kwantung army and seized hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilian settlers as prisoners.

https://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/15904236

After the Japanese girls sexually serviced the Soviet soldiers for months, and were repatriated to Japan some of the girls concealed their past and married Japanese men without telling them.


https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-topics/c030314/

https://www.moviefone.com/movie/in-their-own-words-the-women-of-kurokawa/GjohVqEXuyGDOXoeG3cVW7/main/

https://www.japantvmarket.com/2025/09/11/in-their-own-words/

https://www.facebook.com/PressNewsAgency.org/posts/nearly-80-years-after-15-young-women-were-forced-to-offer-themselves-to-protect-/1278889047575443/ 

https://trakt.tv/movies/in-their-own-words-the-women-of-kurokawa-2025/credits

https://www.instagram.com/p/DNZJzztS4il/

https://www.thetimes.com/world/asia/article/the-japanese-women-sacrificed-as-sex-slaves-to-soviet-troops-wrt6g0729

https://www.fccj.or.jp/event/press-conference-wartime-sexual-violence-manchuria

Madame Butterfly and temporary marriage prostitution of Japanese girls and women to foreign Han Chinese male merchants and western white male merchants.

https://notevenpast.org/the-merchant-the-marriage-and-the-treaty-port-reassessing-oura-kei/

https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/madama-butterflymadamu-batafurai/introduction-marriage-in-the-japanese-way/E434C4C5019D46B227754CD804FCF3DB

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1468-0424.12444

https://www.degruyterbrill.com/document/doi/10.1515/9781898823629-024/html?srsltid=AfmBOoryiJAriivMrBKe-NElhCsV0cCi0dx_Ierthv_cPupMtkWencl1

https://www.face.book.com/groups/1022560929298411/posts/1360154705539030/

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/229389727.pdf

https://assets.cambridge.org/97810092/50672/excerpt/9781009250672_excerpt.pdf
https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/E434C4C5019D46B227754CD804FCF3DB/9781009250672int_1-11.pdf/introduction_marriage_in_the_japanese_way.pdf
https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/madama-butterflymadamu-batafurai/introduction-marriage-in-the-japanese-way/E434C4C5019D46B227754CD804FCF3DB

https://x.com/ShingetsuNews/status/2032796609122034006

https://www.jstor.org/stable/27159907

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10371397.2010.485553

https://www.degruyterbrill.com/document/doi/10.1515/9781898823629-058/html?srsltid=AfmBOopmZiATrPEG63jl6RqrBFi4mSlr_Apn8nuDn6m5yTVFODbnla61

https://www.degruyterbrill.com/document/doi/10.1515/9781898823629-058/html?srsltid=AfmBOoqTPoyJOMsSINMAi9AwkmGRr1inMqmYar_muhoDTjE71PtRHqxr

https://files01.core.ac.uk/download/pdf/212690118.pdf

https://www.marinersmuseum.org/2019/01/from-camels-to-cobangs/

https://publicseminar.org/2017/09/adventures-of-a-postmodern-historian/

https://orca.cardiff.ac.uk/id/eprint/169100/1/2024trullmphd.pdf

https://patents.google.com/patent/JPH0446765Y2/11

https://ised-isde.canada.ca/cipo/trademark-search/1633614

https://patents.google.com/patent/JPS6264566U/ko

https://www.ic.gc.ca/opic-cipo/tmj/eng/view.html?year=2015&edition=08-05&file=Journal_en.html

https://www.myheritage.com/names/james_szasz

https://au.forceswarrecords.com/memorial/638677104/william-o-baker

https://graduation.sites.olt.ubc.ca/files/2012/11/congreg_1986_spring_2.pdf

https://patents.justia.com/patents-by-us-classification/D23/214?page=3

https://patents.google.com/patent/US3989109A/en

https://cudgc.ab.ca/wp-content/uploads/Alberta-Credit-Union-Unclaimed-Balances.pdf

https://ladysmithchronicle.com/2022/10/06/james-szasz/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/she-the-people/wp/2013/11/24/silenced-shame-hungarian-women-remember-wartime-rapes/

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=-I6owJcCOdwC&pg=PA221

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=5n2sEAAAQBAJ&pg=PA9

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=YLMaBgAAQBAJ&pg=PA1987

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=8RRDAQAAIAAJ&pg=SA1-PA492

page 157
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=X351TdTOImMC&q=meiji+japan+temporary+marriages+foreign+merchants&dq=meiji+japan+temporary+marriages+foreign+merchants

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=MU97AAAAQBAJ&pg=PA119

page 785
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=JJo9AQAAIAAJ&q=meiji+japan+temporary+marriages+foreign+merchants&dq=meiji+japan+temporary+marriages+foreign+merchants

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=7DVtAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA264&dq=meiji+japan+temporary+marriages+foreign+merchants

page 83
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=YGcyAQAAIAAJ&q=meiji+japan+temporary+marriages+foreign+merchants&dq=meiji+japan+temporary+marriages+foreign+merchants

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=tpCBrNre5voC&pg=PA461&dq=meiji+japan+temporary+marriages+foreign+merchants
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=5n2sEAAAQBAJ&pg=PA3

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=8RRDAQAAIAAJ&pg=SA1-PA492

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=OCBCAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA341

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=L3M4x_sa1joC&pg=PA626

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=qZxlAgAAQBAJ&pg=PR13

page 278
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=kHpRAQAAIAAJ&q=yokohama+temporary+marriage+foreign+merchants&dq=yokohama+temporary+marriage+foreign+merchants

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=YLMaBgAAQBAJ&pg=PA1987

page 369
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=bU0xAQAAMAAJ&q=yokohama+temporary+marriage+foreign+merchants&dq=yokohama+temporary+marriage+foreign+merchants

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=OeFlw8OC2fAC&pg=PA52

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=F1NwgHY5zCEC&pg=PT134

Koreans were mass raped by Japanese in the Imjin war in 1592-1598 in Korea.

https://sjks.snu.ac.kr/issue/download.jsp?id=734&aid=62&ek=e995f98d56967d946471af29d7bf99f1

Koreans were raped and massacred by Japanese again in Jiandao (Yanbian).

http://encykorea.aks.ac.kr/Contents/SearchNavi?keyword=%EA%B0%84%EB%8F%84%EC%B0%B8%EB%B3%80&ridx=1&tot=77

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=pZlBDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA196#v=onepage&q&f=false

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=7dmysjj13QwC&pg=PA50#v=onepage&q&f=false

Japan literally condoned the US occupation of the Philippines in the Taft-Katsuura agreement in 1905 where US also agreed Korea should become a protectorate of Japan. The agreement said that Philippines should not be under the "misrule" of the natives. Jacob Schiff gave emergency loans to Japan in the Russo Japanese war and saved them from economy collapse. Schiff and Strauss (who later founded American Jewish Committee) helped Theodore Roosevelt win the Ashkenazi vote in his presidential election and lobbied him to support Japan, which he did (and why Taft Katsuura was signed). Strauss was involved in helping US annex Philippines. Japan sent settlers to help the US in Mindanao.

Ashkenazi Jews like Jacob Schiff and Strauss, who served in the US State Department lobbied for the US to back Japan in taking over Korea and Manchuria from Russia and for US expansion in the Philippines in alliance with Japan, while the Kishinev pogroms happened against Ashkenazis in the Russian empire.

As I said on another thread, US military advisors served the Japanese Hokkaido colonisation office when Japan was taking Ainu land and the same officers guided the Japanese expedition against Paiwan Aboriginals of Taiwan in 1874. The US officers took heads of Paiwan Aboriginals that they had the Japanese cut off. The US condoned Japan's occupation of Hokkaido, attack on Taiwan long before the Russo-Japanese war.

Japan had no independent military capability of its own. Meiji Japan was entirely dependent on Britain and the US for military technology and assistance and was an extremely poor country with Karayuki-san appearing in nearly every country in the Pacific and Indian ocean rim. Name a single weapon system invented by Japan, independently discovered or reverse engineered by them. Meiji Japan's military were created by the UK and US and it was entirely dependent on the west for the resources to run their UK built ships.

Japan lost every single naval battle with China before the Meiji restoration, from Baekgang to Noryang point, while Japanese ships and men outnumbered Chinese by multiple times in all those battles. Japan only won with its British built Meiji fleet against China in the first sino Japanese war, running on western supplied fuel on western built ships. Britain taught Japan how to built fighter planes and aircraft carriers in the Sempill mission. Japan's entire naval attacks and landings against China in 1937 were fueled with US, UK and Dutch oil. Japan could never have occupied any land in East Asia without western assistance. There's a reason why Japan never occupied any part of China before the 20th century for the past 1,500 years when there was a state in Japan.

Japan started not abiding with regional security cooperation with the Twenty-One Demands in 1915. The US never followed a "Manichaean" foreign policy. FDR refused to cut off military exports to Japan until Japan invaded French Indochina in 1940 after China forced Japan's hand at the battle of Kunlun pass. Japan's occupation of French Indochina signalled publicly to the western Allies that the Japanese chose their backup plan of conquering all of SEA, and the US only cut off military supplies to Japan under threat of imminent Japanese attack.

No, it was nearly the exact opposite. He claimed that Japan, with American oil and resources managed to defeat China and conquer (before the embargo). Which was the complete opposite of reality, since it was Chinese victories in 1940 on multiple fronts across China that forced Japan into invading French Indochina and triggering the embargo in the first place. Battle of West Suiyuan and Battle of Kunlun pass forced Japan to abandon much of its original plans in China and invade SEA, they totally abandoned their plan to conquer all of northwest (Gansu, Ningxia) and make it into a Hui puppet state after losing West Suiyuan for the rest of the war and it was never brought up again. The Battle of Kunlun pass forced them into French Indochina.

China defeated Japan's attempt at all out conquest of China in 1940 with American oil fueling the Japanese, and they had to end the war or invade either the Soviets or SEA at that point.

Entire provinces of China were never occupied by Japan throughout the entire war like Gansu, Shaanxi, Sichuan, Guizhou, western Hubei and western Hunan, most of Yunnan, most of Fujian. At no point in World War II did Japan conquer or "largely conquered" China.

Japan had ZERO capability to wage war or invade China before the Meiji restoration when Britain built their military for them. They didn't have the technology or natural resources, unlike China which defeated Japan in every single naval battle before the Meiji restoration happened and Japan earned its industrialisation through selling its own people. Japan lost to Tang dynasty China and Ming dynasty China at sea.

Japan had no oil resources etc. of its own and was totally dependent on external supplies.

China didn't receive any aid before 1940, everything was bought and paid for. Britain severed the Burma road in early 1940 at Japan's request and cut off access to China which is why French Indochina became the only land route to China in SEA.

The fertile Guanzhong basin is in Shaanxi province which was also never occupied by Japan and hosted China's historical 3,000 year old capital, Xi'an. Chongqing and Chengdu in Sichuan themselves were major cities (not in the fertile basin but in the mountains). It took Japan four battles and five years to get the single city of Changsha.

Japan never occupied historic thousands of year old cities like Dunhuang, Lanzhou, Yinchuan, Chongqing, Chengdu, Kunming, Dali, Xining etc.

Most of Fujian, western Guangxi, southern Jiangxi, southern Anhui, Ningxia, western Hunan, western Hubei, Sichuan, Shaanxi, Gansu, most of Yunnan, Guizhou in addition to Sichuan were never occupied by Japan.

Shaanxi isn't a barren wasteland, it was the capital region of China for nearly 2,000 years from the Zhou to the Tang dynasty. Xi'an has the best preserved medieval architecture in all of East Asia, it has the oldest standing building in East Asia (Wild Goose Pagoda), the oldest complete medieval city walls, drum tower and temples unlike Tokyo which is a complete steel, glass and concrete construction.

Japan didn't use boats to advance from Laos into Burma all the way to Nagaland and Mizoram in India. It was all through hilly mountainous terrain on foot. They bicycled through Malaya on foot to Singapore.

Not to mention that thanks to decades of western arming of Japan (Sempill mission and Meiji advisors), Japan had technological superiority (none of it was invented by themselves though) over China, Japan had chemical weapons like mustard gas, air superiority, heavy artillery superiority and heavy armour superiority (tankettes).

Western soldiers performed worse, man to man, than Chinese soldiers.

China had no chemical weapons, no biological weapons, most soldiers didn't have gas masks, no heavy armour, no tanks, mostly no heavy arillery and an inferior airforce. Many Chinese soldiers were just wearing straw sandals and with a bolt action rifle and nothing else.

Meanwhile the US and Britain had numerical and technological superiority against Japan at multiple battles, they had their own chemical weapons, their own gas masks, heavy artillery, air superiority etc. At Singapore Britain had both technological and numerical superiority and they lost it.

Japan used chemical weapons against Chinese forces in battles whenever Japanese soldiers were bested in hand to hand combat like parts of the battle of hankou in Wuhan, battle of Taierzhuang, battle of West Suiyuan, they never used chemical weapons against western forces because the US itself had mustard gas. Japan said that their technology like chemical weapons and armour superiority compensated for any imbalance in numbers in China. And Japan lost multiple battles to China where they had total air superiority, used chemical weapons and armour superiority and even in battles where Japan won like Shanghai and Taiyuan, Japan lost tens of thousands dead at each battle, which is unacceptable for facing a force of people in sandals wielding only bolt action rifles. Chinese conscripts with only swords and rifles fought technologically superior Japanese for weeks at multiple battles.

US and British soldiers never faced the Japanese with poison gas and complete air superiority in just straw sandals and rifles and swords and no other equipment. They would not be able to. US had complete rations designed for war unlike Chinese soldiers.

Port cities in China were more valuable to foreigners because of concessions and trade, not to Chinese. China lost its naval superiority in the 19th century due to western iron ships which the west built for Japan, and ports no longer had value to China but they had value to foreign westerners who were running maritime customs and taking money from customs revenue, using it to pay off indemnities they themselves imposed. China had complete naval superiority over Japan for over 1,400 years until the Meiji restoration happened.

Japan received support, loans and lobbying from Ashkenazi politicians in the US due to anti-semitic pogroms in Russia, in addition to selling their own people (karayuki san) for money. The politicians like Sulzberger, Strauss and Schiff who later formed the American Jewish Committee were the ones who gave Japan emergency loans against Russia (Japan was losing more dead than Russia in the land war) and who lobbied Theodore Roosevelt to support Japan. They also endorsed Theodore Roosevelt in his elections for the Ashkenazi vote.

Japan was bleeding out financially and in men (Japanese suffered more dead than Russia at Port Arthur and Nanshan due to their use of human wave attacks against Russian machine guns) and would have lost if they weren't given emergency loans.

Chinese run brothels in many western colonies refused to serve non-Chinese customers unlike the Japanese Karayuki san who were open to all and sent their earnings back to Japan.

https://cilisos.my/the-sad-fate-of-penangs-pre-war-japanese-prostitutes-the-karayuki-san/

Japan would have been crushed even with their British built navy if it weren't for pogroms in Russia and sex trafficking their own people.

Mods all of this is relevant to the topic and it isn't anti-semitic or off topic.

China literally reconquered all areas Japan occupied in Yunnan west of the Salween river during Ichigo in 1944 at Tengchong and Mount Song (Songshan).

Except Ichigo happened after Chiang explicitly ordered the transfer of massive mounts of soldiers to Xinjiang, to seize it from pro-Soviet warlord Sheng Shicai. The Soviet Union occupied Xinjiang in invasions in 1934 and 1937 while Japan was attacking China in the east.

Chiang explicitly stopped offensive fighting in China after Pearl Harbor in 1941, since Japan's defeated was inevitable after the US had been forced into the war by China (through the invasion of French Indochina and subsequent embargo). Chiang then saw the opportunity to regain the entire Xinjiang province from Soviet occupation while the Soviet Union was busy with Operation Barbarossa and he had hundreds of thousands of soldiers sent into Gansu in 1942, ordering Hui warlord Ma Buqing to surrender the part of the Gansu corridor he was in to central government control, and clear the path to occupy Xinjiang. Chiang also ordered Ma Buqing's brother Ma Bufang in Qinghai to patrol the Tibet border and hundreds of thousands of troops were retained in Qinghai and Xinjiang, not engaged in war against Japan.

The Soviets were forced to leave Xinjiang and Chiang took complete control by 1943, while leaving weakened warlord units on the front with Japan, since he saw Japan's defeat as inevitable since the US and UK had been forced into the war against their will and they would be forced to due the brunt of the work after supplying Japan against China for years.

The Soviet Union then backed the Ili rebellion against China in Xinjiang in 1944, the same year as Ichigo, with over 100,000 Chinese troops in Xinjiang and more in Qinghai who were never engaged with the Japanese.

Chiang ordered his own personal troops into Xinjiang after 1941 and stopped them from engaging Japan (As well as Ma Buqing and Ma Bufang's troops), while he ordered weakened warlord forces to man the front with Japan in 1941-1945.

Japan tried to break through Chinese lines from 1941-1943 and were repeatedly unsuccessfully against warlord troops until Ichigo, they were defeated repeatedly at Changsha in 1939, 1941, 1942 and didn't get Changsha until Ichigo in 1944. Japan was also forced to retreat from other battles between 1941-1943 like West Hubei and the battle of Changde in 1943 where Chinese troops fought until they broke out of Japanese encirclment.

Chiang also had to order over 100,000 troops into Burma because Britain lost the entire colony to the Japanese and they were there fighting during Ichigo.

Chiang also ordered the Eighth War Zone's five armies to encircle the communists during the entire war and didn't release them against Japan until months into Ichigo. China was in a civil war with communists during World War II and Chiang resumed offensive actions against the communists between 1941-1944 including multiple battles and encirclements against the communists like the New Fourth Army incident in 1941 (which happened right on the front lines with Japan), the US and UK weren't in a civil war and neither was Japan.

Japan gathered all of their resources in China for Ichigo (literally the "final" throw) in a desperate attempt for a successful offensive as they were losing the war and while China was engaged in Xinjiang, and also Ichigo was mainly to capture US airbases threatening to bomb Japan. Japan gave up trying to conquer China at that point, they stopped their plans for a northwest Hui puppet country after 1940 and never invaded there again.

Japanese forces during the battle of Hengyang in Ichigo, had over 110,000 men and were forced to besiege a single city with a garrison of only 16,000 Chinese soldiers for over a month, suffering tens of thousands dead.

Ichigo was stopped in Guizhou's border with Guangxi after Chiang released the Eighth war zone's armies against the Japanese (Chiang still refused to recall his troops in Xinjiang which were then fighting the Soviets in the Ili rebellion) and Ichigo was forced to stop.

Japan then tried conquering West Hunan in 1945 after Ichigo. The Japanese were routed and forced to retreat. China also reconquered all lands in Guangxi in the Second Guangxi campaign in August 1945 that Japan occupied during Ichigo. Japan lost all battles in China in 1945 (offensive and defensive battles), while China was still fighting the Ili rebellion from 1944 to 1946. Chiang never released the soldiers and aircraft who were engaged in the Ili rebellion against Japan.

Japan invaded a China that was divided and in a state of civil war and attacked China while China was at war on its western front as well and failed to conquer China. Chiang also ordered warlords like the Sichuan warlords to send all their troops to the front against Japan while conserving his own forces, even before 1941. Chiang ordered the Sichuan warlords and the New Guangxi clique to fight Japan at the battle of Wuhan in 1938 (where Japan used poison gas to win after failing to take over a single for in multiple assaults). Most of the warlord forces had just swords and bolt action rifles.

Chiang consistently refused to use his own troops throughout both the Chinese civil war and World War II and always sought to throw warlord forces into battle against Japan or communists, he retained much of his own forces when retreating to Taiwan.