it's all jewish bullshit

that's all you need to know

that's why paul can't come up with a direct quote or actual event jesus did and the gospels were written after him

>>42456797
This.
>>42456779 (OP)
Why would Yahweh need a “spirit” to move in and influence the world if its and all knowing omnipresent omnipowerful being?

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>>42456779 (OP)
>And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”

All three Persons of the Trinity are present in this Gospel excerpt.

John 1:1 is another important Trinitarian verse; “the Word was WITH God and the Word WAS God” [emphasis added]. See also Psalm 110:1. The list goes on.

I cannot explain the Trinity. But the Trinity is biblical, and I have faith in God’s Word.

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>>42456779 (OP)
>their god can barely manage three personalities of the godhead

>>42456843
>>And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”

this verse supports unitarianism, unless you think it makes sense for God to descend on himself and call himself his beloved son.

>>42456885
I think any god we can make sense of is not God.

>>42456898
copout

>>42456905
Does life make sense to you?

>>42456919
where did jesus claim to be god?

>>42456922
When He said:

>Before Abraham was, I AM.

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Retard.

The only way to explain this world logically is using the trinity.

>>42456946
I asked you where did he claim to be God

>>42456811
Why do we need transformers when we can just hook up electricity straight from the power station?

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>>42456779 (OP)
If you're looking for an explanation of the Trinity in Western Christianity (post-filioque) then I can't help, because the way they say the holy spirit also proceeds from the Son breaks with neoplatonism. The Holy spirit cannot also proceed from the son, it's the procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father that solely gives it its uniqueness, just as the Son is differentiated solely by being generated by the Father.
Anyway, is you read Proclus he talks about God and cosmic theology through something called the "Doctrine of Participation." There are three parts or levels at which things are, and all things are within God, who is imminent and transcendent:
>Unparticipated
>Participated
>Participant
The unparticipated is beyond being.
The participated transfers aspects of the unparticipated to participants, which allows the unparticipated to be participated in by an unlimited number of things without being limited by them.
Participants recieve from the participated, giving them their existence/attributes.
Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite, himself a student of Proclus, brought this system into the church and basically adopted it fully, with the exception of agreeing eternal beings created by God are self-subsisting (sidestepping polytheism).
St. Maximus the Confessor further refines this system, and he's the backbone of a lot of EO theology.
In a nutshell, the Father exists beyond the dyad of being and non-being. He is unparticipated. The Incarnation existed in material reality, he is the participant. The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and rests in the Son. He is the participated. The Holy Spirit is also how we recieve divine Grace when we purify ourselves to be more like the Son (Theosis/deification).
A final note is that all this describes God's "energies" not his "essence". We can't really know God's essence because it's beyond the dyad of being and non-being, so by definition beyond what we can conceive.

>>42457057
I recommend the book "Theophany: The Neoplatonic Philosophy of Dionysius the Areopagite" by Eric Perl. Also you can look at Vladimir Lossky books if you want a less secular and more Christian look (Eastern Orthodox Christianity). Got into it after 10 years of Neoplatonism, it's great. Good luck OP.

>>42456968
>literalist retard

>>42457070
seems important enough that he would let his disciples know

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Different people one God at the same time

>>42456843
>and the Word WAS God
Nontrinitiarians commonly argue that this can be translated as "divine" or maybe even "a god" instead of "God" due to the missing article in the Greek. Since I'm not a Koine Greek scholar I'm mostly stuck taking people's word for things like whether that's allowed, but notably in John 10:31-39, when the Jews are about to stone Jesus for making himself out to be God, he doesn't say they're right. Instead he refers to Psalm 82, where certain entities are referred to as "gods," and says that if they're allowed to be called gods, he isn't necessarily blaspheming when he says he's God's Son. Imo this defense only makes sense if he's rejecting the claim that he's identifying himself with God in the fullest sense. He might be implying that he's *a* god, though he only explicitly claims to be God's Son, which he perhaps intends to be a unique category of being, neither God nor a god.

However, if the idea that Jesus *could* be intended to be a god seems impossible to believe, it isn't entirely unprecedented. There's a weird theory I really like that the original form of the gospel of John was written a the 2nd century heretic named Apelles, and he did count Christ as a god separate from God the Father (but still God the Father's Son), and one of a few gods in his system.
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/050110.htm
>and by adding (to their number) Christ likewise, he will assert Him to be a fifth God.

>>42457209
>was written a the 2nd century heretic named Apelles
*was written by the 2nd century heretic Apelles and/or his prophetess Philumene

>>42457209
Yes, and it is a recent invention of translation that they started in the next sentences referring to the "word" as "him", before it was referred to as "it"

>>42457209
the bible is very clear on the trinity being false, so the real question is why are bible teachers and scholars claiming it is right. Fear of being cancelled by the academy / the church ?

>>42457303
Not many people have the balls to maintain that most everyone has been misinterpreting a religion's holy book for most of its history and at the same time still believe that religion is the one God favors above all. But a lot of people do still want to believe that their religion is the one God favors above all.

Re: scholars, Idk how common it is for the nonreligious ones to say the trinity doctrine is the best way to make sense of the new testament. I doubt there would be too much of a conspiracy there, but the field might be filled with enough religious scholars that the nonreligious ones don't want to risk offending their colleagues too excessively.

>>42457407
I am very disappointed in most of my "heroes" on this topic. I used to really admire John Nelson Darby, but now recently I read one of his letters replying to a question about the trinity, and he was very aggressively affirming the trinity, being downright condescending and offering very little evidence for his position

everytime sometimes like that happen, I feel so disappointed, and also reminded not to put anyone on a pedestal

the scholars who defend the trinity do it by reading a lot of meaning into the text, there is no direct statements in the bible pointing to jesus being god, yet the opposite is true, there are many direct evidences that there are many creatures called gods in the bible (including satan), and that we should just worship the almighty creator god (the father, YHWH)

I'm torn between calling denying the trinity arrogance and profanation - forcing something down to my level to make me comfortable with it - and calling it logical and right. The Holy Spirit at the baptism could just be representative of a fragment of God until He fully appears, and other stuff.

Eh. Maybe there's a good book on the topic.

>>42457440
OP here, not sure if it was clear from the OP but I too am torn, based on my own reasoning it seems clearly a wrong doctrine, but then again, flat earthers feel the same way, so I don't know if it's possible that there could be a conspiracy so large that for centuries, all those people smarter than me have been forced or mislead to affirm the trinity. Not sure, not sure...

>>42457474
Flip through old and new testament and decide. It's a colossal read. Letham's The Holy Trinity is something I've meant to read for a bit.

>>42457495
at the moment I kinda gave up on the old testament, for years I have tried to read it, but it is just too boring and dry, I can't do it.

Started finnally on the new testament a few weeks ago and it reads like a pamplet, very easy

>>42456779 (OP)
>and in a sense make it seem that rejecting the trinity is as outrageous as claiming the earth is flat.
>>42457474
>but then again, flat earthers feel the same way
I can't help you with your theological questions, but you should know that the Earth really is flat

>>42457553
>you should know that the Earth really is flat

it could be, why do you think so?

>>42457556
If it was round, Australians would fall off.

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>>42456779 (OP)
https://youtu.be/jLXxCI2jb8w?si=rtmRt1E2u9KRbwwK [Embed]

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>>42457604

>>42457094
>Hey mates, I have some decent info I need ta drop on ye
>Yea, Teach?
>Imma God like you wouldn't believe it
>:-0

>>42456779 (OP)
If the trinity is real, then God is dead, having died to be split into the trinity.

It's a reversal of the triple Goddess, the maiden, the mother, the crone. The son, the father, the holy ghost.

Understanding the magic behind the triple goddess as a spell cast by the crone over dilemmas of the maiden & the mother, in the trinity all love is focused on christ which removes the dilemmas through faith in christ, with conflicts of the father & the son taking centre stage with the holy ghost casting the spell, this inevitable sets the stage for the father to betray the son in numerous ways (much like how the son was left to die on the cross by the father).

I would be willing to accept the trinity if they acknowledge the death of God.

>>42456905
No no, he has a point, any God that interferes with the acts of man can not be considered a capital G God.

>>42456968
"I AM" is the declaration.

The Bible features God's ultimate self-declaration, "I AM WHO I AM" (Exodus 3:14), revealing His eternal, self-existent nature. Jesus echoed this in the Gospel of John, proclaiming His deity through seven powerful "I AM" statements (e.g., "I am the bread of life"). Believers use these truths to make daily faith affirmations

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>>42456779 (OP)
>totally made up theological exercise in mental gymnastics and has no validity AT ALL WHATSOEVER.
Theosis, there is a new word for you gnostic niggers. How about theosynthetic? Priest-craft? the christian god is: a vampire, cannibal, mother fucker.


>thus sayeth the Lord(of the Earth)
>this calls for a mind of wisssdom: Next Line is schizo-bird high on crack cocaine scribble.

Its the womens fault
Its the snakes fault
No, its YOU FAULT
>Rebellion story is in the back
CADO

Christian niggers are tuaght to only look for false prophets, false teachings, and falsehood. They obsess with Satan, make up all kinds of stories about him. Then when you mention God, they have to overwrite it with "Jesus Christ". There is nothing Godly about it, it is all about appearances with that man's religion and his followers but the inside is rotten to the core.
>Let the dead bury the dead.
>You make people twice the sons of Hell as you are
Go back your game of killing abrahamics for fun, wasn't a problem until someone else wants you to do it. Apparently, people and beings do not like it when you try to use them as a weapon..

Just look at the body of Jesus dangling there, now read the part about having to eat his flesh. LOL Now read the part about marrying him as a bride, It is a religion for trannies.

>>42456779 (OP)
Well yeah - Jesus doesn't claim to be God in the Bible, only writings written decades after his crucifixion do. Jesus even speaks to God the father as a distinct entity Luke 23:34.
The real revelation of Christianity is that the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon - it has perverted the message of God for selfish Earthly pleasures (i.e. wealth and power).
John 8:48-59 I believe is Jesus stating he is a being/soul older than Abraham, perhaps made flesh as Jesus - and interestingly aligns with Islam's recording of Jesus speaking as a baby. In fact I quite like a lot of what Islam says about Jesus (Isa) - and it gives far more details on the End Times and the final battle.

>>42456779 (OP)
“Father” God
“Son” Jesus
“Holy spirit” that little voice that speaks facts

>>42457892
Shut up.

>>42457892
So, three different beings. I'd say there are only two, God and Jesus - because "Holy Spirit" is just a name for God's Direct Blessing. A name for a phenomenon, not for an aspect or a being.
Jesus is seen praying to God, calling out to God, etc. - am I supposed to ignore all of these just because he said I AM in a verse where, taking the context into consideration, means that He is the way that leads to God? Nothing out of the ordinary here, as Messiah he indeed is the way to God, through which everyone must pass if they are to see the Kingdom of Heaven.

>>42457887
I would spend hours looking up all the passages where it is clear as day that jesus is not god,

but i am pretty sure that some of them are so extreme that it is madness to still claim the trinity


>Luke 22:42-44
>42 saying, Father, if thou wilt remove this cup from me: -- but then, not my will, but thine be done.>
>43 And an angel appeared to him from heaven strengthening him.
>44 And being in conflict he prayed more intently. And his sweat became as great drops of blood, falling down upon the earth.


does this seem like GOD to you?
>Pleading for not having to go through it all to GOD
>being comforted by an angel
>being so fucking frightened and stressed that he literally sweats blood?

>>42458082
As someone yet to be blessed with faith, but who wants to believe, I like to look at the entire corpus of religious texts and where they came from. If one looks at the Abrahamic faiths as "updates" or "clarifications" from the divine, to counter the human corruption that occurs with time and interpretation, I am almost certain that we're either in the End Times or just about to be. All 3 religions prophecies are in the process of being fulfilled.
And the thing is I suspect the disclosure being trickled out is connected. The descriptions of angels or other divine beings and their capabilities (and the likes of the Ark of the Covenant or miracles) combined with sufficiently advanced technology being indistinguishable from magic, I could see several mysteries/questions being resolved by what's about to happen.

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>>42456779 (OP)
Reminder she has s great god

over time ive actually come to accept jesus as messiah. rivlin hilel allows infinite messiahs. jesus isnt the messiah son of joseph, but he is a valid one. onkelos the same one who determined yeshu boiled in excrement, is actually the proof in a different light for why american christianity are the true oxen carriers, not herzl jews of 2026, how you ask? because onkelos converted to judaism on alignment alone, no validation. so when modern jews say mother son validated genetics, you counter with but rivlin hilel said the jews would work and pray like americans do. additionally jesus did unite the people. for the last 2000 years no one isnt somewhere in the debate. jesus himself did not drink of the 4th cup, confirming what i said that he is NOT mby

>>42458123
do you believe Jesus was the Son of God like he literally affirmed in Luke 22:69-70
>69 but henceforth shall the Son of man be sitting on the right hand of the power of God.
>70 And they all said, *Thou* then art the Son of God? And he said to them, *Ye* say that I am.

or do you believe he is GOD?

answer the question

>>42456797
Wrong Satan more freemason liesnfor Jews stupid bots Zoroaster was a catholic priest zeitoun warraq assirut you are insar af satanic demonically in a state of reality our lady Guadalupen engineering flat earth Roman Catholic nigger jeets retarded gaytheist git spewing gay lying retarded mongrel no sight splc naacp communist retarded vermins our lady of Guadalupe in Columbia Satan vulgate not the bibboe psycho reality denying nutcases Christianity catholicism etruscans Trojans atlanteans all were christians catholic Judaism is a Hindu edomite usurpation btw catholic miracles tens of millions Sr Thomas Aquinas Aristotle were right faggot Hindus stupid teach all earth as not real universe but universe demons af gods

>>42456883
God made he own mother Zoroaster was a defrocked Roman stupid Jews are urpatatious and retarded larp back then new thing more made up

>>42458139
"Ye" means "you", or more accurately "thee" because "y" was used instead of the no longer used "þ". Jesus is almost Eastern in his speech of not actually answering a question. All he says there is "you say that I am" - he neither confirm nor denies.
Additionally, the Gospel of Luke was written in 80-90 AD.

I want to believe, but am not blessed with faith.

>>42458156
ah yes, I totally misread that. epic self ownage

thanks for pointing that out anon, I will investigate further

>>42458156
>Additionally, the Gospel of Luke was written in 80-90 AD.

so how can it have been written by an eye witness? something is off here

>>42458162
No worries, I'm not looking to take faith away from anyone - I (like Martin Luther) like looking at the actual texts. In my case including other religions and the Apocrypha for similarities. For instance the story of Noah is almost certainly derived from the Gilgamesh flood myth. The Books of Enoch are particularly interesting - additionally, as I talked about earlier what Islam says about Jesus (Isa to them) and the End Times.

>>42458174
I don't doubt the big picture events, I just know memory and the limits of the people at the time. Plus the interference of the Catholic Church. Deciding what is/isn't canon centuries after Christ, hiding their archives (they should have been digitised decades ago), The Gospels being largely the same story by more grandiose as their authorship is more recent. Again: I'm not doubting the big events could have happened (Jesus' historicity is very well established for example), just stating that humans are fallible creatures. Perhaps this is why there were multiple prophets or interventions? Attempts by divine or demonic forces to influence how religions develop.

>>42458197
i think i am much like you "i WANT to believe" therefore always researching this stuff and have been for 20 years on and off

still no clear conclusion, not even on the trinity

>>42458197
also what do you think of the fact that a few years ago they used a new technology to do another dating on the shroud of turin and it came back as first century, and science also concluded it cannot be a forgery that was drawn or painted

>>42458200
Well regardless I have been baptised in the local Christian tradition as an infant, and if/as more End Times prophesies are fulfilled I will likely begin to believe. I live a mostly virtuous life just because it's good for me, there aren't many religious laws in any of the Abrahamic faiths I couldn't live under. Besides circumcision - I understand the need for Middle Eastern barbarians to prevent disease (same with pork prohibition), but Europeans have no such need.
In particular if/when the Al-Aqsa Mosque is destroyed - whether it's accidental "Iranian" malfunction or Israel somehow going all out mask-off sprint to reinstall the House of David in the Temple - if the mosque is destroyed for any reason I'll start believing.

>>42458203
It's one of the most compelling relics. IIRC there's also something weird about the imprint, it's caused by an incomprehensibly bright flash of light from the body or some such hypothesis?
For the topics of relics I'm interested in the DNA of Christ or antediluvian people or Nephilim. Anything that is both divine and human, it would be concrete proof. Coincidentally a "whistle-blower" came forward yesterday saying the CIA used the commercial DNA testing sites to search for alien DNA.

>>42456779 (OP)
okay, instead let me spin the question around on you.

Yahweh the Father is clearly a part of the godhead.
Jesus the Christ is also clearly part of the godhead.
And also the Holy Spirit is also clearly part of the godhead.

All three are part of the godhead, and head, there is but "one god."

There's two options
>all scripture is false and the religion is a lie the flaws exist because it is written by different men with different ideas over decades and centuries.
>It's true, SOMEhow. All three are godhead, yet together only one god.

>>42458230
>It's one of the most compelling relics. IIRC there's also something weird about the imprint, it's caused by an incomprehensibly bright flash of light from the body or some such hypothesis?


yes, I recently saw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nj5IK_nU4hs [Embed]

and it blew my mind, it also explains that science cant explain how it was made but the hypothesis is an insane flash of light

>>42458239
what about modalism or my understanding of it, meaning jesus was a man (born of a woman human being) and God was working through him

this would explain that he wept when his friend died and sweated blood when he was about to be executed

>>42458257
>what about modalism
What? Christ was a terrible lover and God isn't something the abrahamic faith can claim ownership of, and any truly omnipotent God wouldn't interfere with the acts of man once creation was set in motion?

>>42457440
Like anything humans put into language, I don’t think giving things which are aspects of a whole individual names necessarily undermines the sanctity of the whole. 「That which the concept of the trinity describes」is the salient part of the faith, not the concept of the trinity which is a human construction to make sense of it in relation to our experience of it.
In this way I think it’s internally consistent from a given point of view to attest that God is simultaneously present in totality (Father), the human being (Son), and the medium by which the creator and creation meet (Holy Spirit), such that an example like the Christ or the burning bush is understood as a true form of God within a microcosm of the total experience.
Not that that’s anything that hasn’t been put forth in discussion ad nauseam for the last 2,000-200,000 years, but what else is /x/ for?

>>42458247
The Vatican Archives are the real place we should be looking. Whether they hid/held it to cover up something inconvenient to themselves or for safekeeping, we have non-destructive methods of analysing things now. Christendom deserve to know the truth.

>>42458296
who has access to it? any priest? if so, I must become a priest, seems pretty unlikely I would manage that

>>42458302
You need to be the pope, the archives only allow viewing of known documents, you're not allowed to catalog the archives or something.

>>42458302
No. Basically there's a set number of selected scholars that are allowed access for information they request. i.e. you have to know exactly what you're looking for to request, you can't just say "everything related to [X]". I'm not sure even the Pope could fully open them up - there are several powerful parties within the Vatican. From the military to the bank, the Pope is not the Vatican.

>>42458328
so this is why they don't generally allow popes to retire, it makes sense now

>>42458336
>they don't generally allow popes to retire
They stay in power until god fires them from life... its not common for a pope to retire but it does happen.

>>42458343
it's so that they can keep him under surveillance until the end

>>42458346
What do ypu think would happen if a retired pope started saying aliens were real and spoke about all the deals they made with the nazis, and other unknown nuggets of information?
Just some crazy crack pot they'd say, wouldn't they?

>>42458354
I don't know, they let Joseph Ratzinger retire, but as far as I understand, they never let him leave the vatican (life sentence)

>>42458257
That's Modalism, Patrick.

>>42458610
yes thats what i said

>>42458296
There's way too many books for things to be exclusive to The Vatican Library/Archive.

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>>42456779 (OP)
there's the drug, the person who takes the drug, and the spirit that inhabits the drug-taker. now you know why they hide the truth and make it sound retarded.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MPHyR92MQic&ra=m [Embed]

>>42458615
You've never seen the video?

>>42458618
It's not necessarily about the volume of artefacts, but the age/continuity. The number of powerful organisations still around today that are that old, you could probably count on 1 hand. If any group could hide away some truly miraculous artefacts, the Vatican is one of them.

>>42458637
Why do you spell 'artifacts' like that?

>>42458675
>artefacts
I'm British.

>>42458707
british should adopt american spelling, harmonize your clown language

>>42458738
Nta, americans should adopt the british spelling
https://www.etymonline.com/word/artifact
>1821, artefact, "artificial production, anything made or modified by human art," from Italian artefatto, from Latin arte "by skill" + factum "thing made," from facere "to make, do."

>>42458751
>Nta, americans should adopt the british spelling
why should the winners adopt the ways of the losers

>>42458784
You're not "winners", you're inheritors. We passed the mantle of global hegemon to you as our children. And frankly y'all're doing a terrible job.

>>42458899
You?

I am german

Is this the designated mental gymnastics thread?

If you read the book of John, then the unity of the Son and the Father becomes obvious.
If you were to throw out the book of John and Paul's letters, then the Trinity becomes much more difficult to find in the Bible.
Trinity deniers know this and come up with novel bible canons to excise all Trinitarianism from the Bible, like this fellow >>42457209
>If we remove the Trinity from the bible, there is no Trinity in the Bible
Brilliant argument, I must admit.