Feeling Discouraged
Hi, I just wanted to vent about how frustrated I am with men lately. I am from North America (Canada), and I am currently learning Thai because I plan to go live and work in Thailand. I love the country so much, there are a million reasons why I want this and why I have worked so hard towards it. I am following many subreddits about Thailand and it seems to be the WORST of the worst men on there. It feels like the only people who post on there are white expats or tourists looking to use and exploit thai women because they believe asian women are more "submissive" which we know translates to "easier to abuse". I find this dynamic so heart breaking and I feel so angry for asian women. There is so much more to this country and culture than the sex trade. Today I almost deleted reddit all together because of the vile things the men were writing on these groups. The thing is... I want to follow the group to stay informed about Thailand but its almost not worth it at this point. I feel discouraged to even continue with my language studies because of the rampant sexism that is correlated to this country. I know I cannot escape misogyny, its in ever corner of the world, but it breaks my heart to know that tourists like this have created a horrible reputation to the people there. I hate that men are tarnishing my dreams, and my favorite place on this planet.
Does anyone else ever feel this burning desire to run away somewhere to escape the constant non stop never ending stream of misogyny but then feel like theres no where to go? I think apart of me wants to go there because (despite knowing *some* Thai) I mostly don't know the language and therefore might not pick up on the microagressions so easily.
Please comment what country you are from and which place you fantasize immigrating to. I just want to build a life and career that isnt in an extremly male centred place. Maybe Thailand is not the best idea for that, but if not my fav country, than where?
I recall reading in Sheila Jeffrey's The Industrial Vagina (I highly recommend this book) that an ILO report estimated that the prostitution industry in Thailand holds up their economy by an estimated 2—14% (and this report was from the early 00s, so safe to assume the numbers have only gone even further up since then given how tourism boomed).
I'm a Singaporean who has not spent significant time in Thailand, but am vaguely familiar with its culture due to being a Theravada Buddhist — the overall state of things does seem as sexist as what you and commenters have said. I'm not sure if you may find this relevant, but I recall a monk mentioning that a lot of religious Thai men even don't believe that visiting prostitutes constitutes a breaking of the basic Buddhist precept to not commit sexual misconduct/misuse of the senses. I thought that said a lot.
It's not just white expats and tourists being disgusting; many, many Singaporean men flock to Thailand to be the worst johns there as well — we even have a local pejorative for them, "Bangkok Bros". It is not uncommon for Singaporean men to send prostitutes to male employees when they go to Thailand for work trips and such as well. I've known of women here who have had their male partners cheat on them with prostitutes in this exact situation.
Maybe if you find your own safe circle and niche within Thailand it'll be worthwhile, but I personally can't ever feel at ease in a country where so much of their economic and cultural fabric relies on the flagrant abuse of women and girls. Sooner or later I'd be bound to have rude encounters, in whatever form, with the worst ugliness of humanity that Thailand enables. Even if I'm not directly affected, everything about Thailand's proven reputation of being a free zone for traffickers, pimps, and johns—foreign and local alike—is something that seeps into the fabric of society, in the power dynamics that play out in day to day life, in people's attitudes to things in general. I've never felt comfortable in Thailand (ever since I first visited as a child with my family on holiday) and I never knew exactly why besides a "the vibes feel off", but after growing up and reading more about 4B and feminist literature, I think this would be why. If we become habituated to the water in which we swim in, then a country that enables, encourages, and turns a blind eye to the abuse of women and girl children on such an unparalleled scale is not a place I would ever want to step into long term.
I really wouldn't recommend it as a place to live if a woman is 4B and has better options 😩🙏
this really sucks to hear re Theravada Buddhism.
I'm not so suprised as a friend who was a former Thai monk told me his fellow monks would sexually harrass women in their monasteries and would coerce women into being their "girlfriends".
i didn't know it was this bad though. feeling very depressed about this everywhere.
It's the rampant paedophilia there that is even more off-putting. The only place I would immigrate to is a women only country.
"A woman only country" - That would be a dream come true! No abuse, no crime, no war, no humiliation for male amusement. I bet only one single prison would be enough in that dream country because of the reduced crime rate without men and that one prison would be almost empty. Women's shelters would be empty and women as a collective would fulfill their full potential without these sick sociopaths holding us back- damn, we would collectively thrive!
I am from America, and I have the feeling you describe often. More in the last year than ever before. Like the other commenter, I fantasize about escaping to a women's-only country, which does not exist, sadly.
I agree. A women's only country would be the safest.
Themyscyra does not exist yet, however, there are two different women-only communities in the northeast. Perhaps worth expanding and/or building more spaces like that
I've heard good things about Iceland in terms of gender equality. If there are any members from there, would love to hear from them.
I spent six months in Phuket, Thailand, and it was the worst violence and abuse I’ve ever experienced, mostly from Thai men but also white (s)expats. 10/10 would not recommend.
I heard this about Phuket. I have spent a lot of time in Thailand and have avoided that very place for this specific reason. I am so sorry you had that experience there. I will say, some of the other more rural places I visited, not all of Thailand is like that. Phuket is one of the most touristy areas and draws the worst types of men to it. It wasnt your fault, and how would anyone know this? Men are drawn to countries and places with loose laws so they can abuse more freely, and I think this is why they are attracted to places like Phuket in Thailand. Its gross. And I believe you about Thai men. I am apart of another group of Thai women and they all say the same.
Add the Philippines, Kenya, parts of Latin America. The women are desperate to escape poverty and the men are, well, just being men.
I know I commented on it in another group and the men were like "they deserve it" "like attracts like"... .they are too fucking stupid to understand the nuance of power and abuse. They are always the dominating ones but also the victims at the same time. Patriarchy has socialized men to be narcissists who regularily practive DARVO and avoid accountability even in their own thinking. I am so tired of them. If someone is poor and hungry you put food in their mouth, not your filthy disgusting and frankly useless DICK. (not you - the men lol)
Whenever I hear or read about these losers who go to Asia to find a 'submissive Eastern wife,' I vigorously hope these women come back to the US, get their citizenship, and divorce these fuckin losers ASAP. Just fleece em all during the marriage, then take everything divorce court will allow. Go on to live their own dreams, whether in the US or going back home, where they can live with their families again with enough money to support them.
>Patriarchy has socialized men to be narcissists who regularily practive DARVO and avoid accountability even in their own thinking.
I feel like a lot of women don't realize how much it's hurting them to evaluate men on an individual case-by-case basis while not looking at overarching patterns like this and how much society and other men condition the men around them to behave this way, and how easy it is for them to get away with to some degree.
They are not stupid. They are evil. They do understand and they choose to side with abusers.
Hahaha. I recall seeing a video on IG by an Arab sister. I can't quite remember her exact words but the point she was making was about men needing to insert their penises into women under the guise of 'help". They are revolting!
I was confused about why the Philippines was the only Southeast Asian country you mentioned. I get that some men come here to look for a woman to marry, and I’ve seen that happen. But I’ve also traveled around other parts of Southeast Asia and noticed the same thing there.
I think women in Southeast Asia are gaining more freedom overall. A lot of young women are becoming more aware of things like the “Oxford study,” and I’m honestly here for that shift. As someone from the Philippines, I’ve seen more women trying to build independence and fight their way out of poverty rather than relying on men.
I think no matter the country, there will always be women who feel pressured to escape poverty through relationships, especially in places where the system is already broken. But that doesn’t define women in general.
I'm from Korea. 4B originated in Korea, but no one can talk about it openly. All YouTube and mass media only talk about birth rates, marriage life, and dating programs. Women who talk about 4B are targeted by online incels. So even in women, some know 4B, while some don't. This is why some people say, "I've never heard of anything like that in Korea." I've always imagined a women-only country where we can speak out freely in.
I'm AsianAm (American-born with family from SE Asia) and I honestly don't really fantasize about moving away or "escaping" anywhere so much as I try to focus on improving where I live in some small way, even if it's not monumental.
I want to live in Finland in a peaceful small city.
As a lover of learning languages, I think you should find hope and pride in learning Thai because it will open plenty of doors for you. The men you talk about don't learn Thai or integrate into the culture because they're only there to parasitically take advantage of the local women.
You on the other hand will be able to experience the real culture and make meaningful connections with the locals, who I'm sure are sick of parasitic tourists and will appreciate that you're genuinely interested in the country. If it's something you've worked hard for I don't think you should let misogyny discourage you because it's everywhere. Maybe there are groups for female expats you could look into? Thailand is a really popular destination for non-nefarious reasons as well, so I'd imagine there must be other foreigners there who have the same thoughts and worries as you.
I had great experiences traveling in Kazakhstan to the point where I was thinking of living there for a time, but there aren't a lot of relevant job prospects for me there 😔
Thank you for saying this, it was the most encouraging thing I have read this morning. I am going to do some researching on women expats I think thats a great idea! I am apart of a LGBTQ subreddit for Thailand and a lot of women came on there to say encouraging things also. Annoyingly was a bunch of men (exactly like the men I was talking about) arguging with me. They are like parasites taking up every space they can. I was actually thinking about what a "Safe space" means to me, and to most, and honestly its a space without men. That is sad and says something about men in my opinion. For example I commented on a womans comment who said she was 4B and I said I was too, it got a bunch of downvotes. I know it isnt the trans and gay men or women in there doing that... Who else would care so much to downvote then entitled men who feel insulted by women not wanting them? One even said "act professional grow up" today because I posted how bad I felt for the Thai women to have to deal with white farang men. I think I need a break from Reddit. It really sucks because I need to read encouraging things like what you just wrote, but its so hard to access spaces where men arent somehow leaking in.
But before I do go, Kazakhstan?! I was shocked to read that but also super curious! Do tell! What makes you love it there? Some people have this same reaction to me saying I love Thailand so I get it... theres so much they cant understand until they go themselves. There is evil and misogyny everywhere, you are correct, I cant let that stop me from living and achieving my dreams. If I did, I might as well not even live because the only resistantless path is to be a sex and baby slave for abusive men. I cant take off my armour and give up. And today, I will feel proud of my language learning skills. Thank you! I really needed this today.
I’ve also been asking people where they’re planning to move to, but I’m from the US. I actually know a woman I work with who is also planning to move to Thailand because the US money conversion would be helpful to set her life up there. I have no idea where to go… my plan has been to buy land in the US in a rural area, and try to start a community of all women. I’ll seriously dedicate my life goal to doing it if that’s what it takes. Otherwise I have no idea what other country I’d ever live in, since I don’t speak another language, and I would only move away if I was fluent in their language and had studied their culture. My grandparents also immigrated to the US, but it’s not like the misogyny is any better in their home country because its also been overtaken by tourism, so I’m not sure if there’s a point in trying to return there. It’s cool that you’re learning new languages at all, and might still be worth considering.
Canadian here. I hope one day here. I’m disabled and off work currently. But should make ok money when or if I go back to. If I can I want to try to build my savings back up and move somewhere with friends. I feel like I’m starting over again, but it’s one step at a time.
Same. I am starting over again and I am so scared men are going to somehow once again ruin my life and success. The better, stronger, more independent I become the more angry and resentful and misogynistic they become and I feel trapped in that oppression.
As a person who was sex trafficked and still dealing with the gang stalking aftermath, moving will not solve anything. Its an estimated 268 BILLION dollar industry, tax free. Until I found myself actually a target, when I was over 30, I had 0 logical understanding of just how much of our society is involved with it directly or covering it up.
Its not just the men who rape women in basements locked away. Even the epstine files show that its all walks of life and can be smiling in pictures snd hidden in plain sight. And its also ongoing torture after you escape by "flying monkeys" who can be literal grandmas or teens, being paid to do a simple, not illegal task that is coordinated harassment on the victim. The women can appear to have free will, smiling at parties. But the truth is there is power and coercion over victims, that many willingly turn a blind eye to. Doctors, even. Victims are love bombed and given gifts one day, then threatened, beaten or stalked the next. Victims are abused and have real mental health problems as a result, which will then gets victims discredited as mentally ill, to not be taken seriously later. There is a difference between being truly mentally ill and having mental health struggles. This nuance is exploited by traffickers.
Just because you're paranoid, doesnt mean you're wrong
The Epstine scandal is great example of how you can have FBI cases, reports upon reports, victims testimony, and even convictions, yet perpetrators are glorified and walking amongst us everyday and incredibly skilled at gaslighting and minimizing the problem. And despite millions of pages of proof, nothing happens or changes. Traffickers know this. They know victims often report and nothing happens.
This isnt new sadly, women have been sex trafficked since the beginning of time. To actually change our society would be an overhaul most arent interested in making. Easier to turn a blind eye and hope you specifically dont get involved. Often when I share with people my story, they get afraid of me, thinking that ill bring it towards them. No one actually helps. They wont risk their own comfort. You can see this in countless sex crimes where victims arent believed and now the victims women are the ones slandered and defamed. I believed the gaslighting in my own case for a long time. Theyre super good at this, I understand too how outsiders can be fooled too
Sex trafficking isnt just being locked in a basement. Its complex. Many women dont know they are victims for long periods of time. It can start with a Romeo pimp which appears to be a real relationship to that woman. It can start with a seemingly good friend who encourages you to party and try drugs and take more and more risky behavior. Ect.
The sex traffickers too will do everything to discredit their victims. Gang stalking as a term is often brushed off as schizophrenia but its a well documented tactic by cults to harass and intimidate victims. There isnt mind control and its not aliens, thats fake misdirection, but there is very real psychological warfare by stalking and smear Campaigns. Its not unique to sex trafficking as a tactic to silence victims. Think church of scientology or other more acceptedly true cults. They do this too when members try escaping. Sex trafficking is a cult of narcissistic people and their victims, but they hide because they know its all illegal obviously. But also they dont need to advertise, buisness is booming and lack of accountability means they can just verbally deny and nothing will be done. Once a trafficked individual breaks free, theyll endure endless stalking and harassment, funded by the sex trafficking itself.
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What i wish I did before I was a victim-
Listen to all the songs and stories of women before you. Really listen. Be 4B yesterday.
They were warning us. Men cheat. Men SA. Men lie. You cant out run this or move away from it. They will gladly hunt you down if they want to. Its a thrill for them. Learn to be mentally resilient and not fall for live bombing and gaslighting. Do not revolve your life around anything they say or do. Starve them out
All you can do is stay safe and be weary of strangers. Anyone being too nice, offering too good of a deal, love bombing you, they are not sincere. Learn to cut people off who show you their truth immediately and dont look back. You are absolutely better off. Dont believe the lies about needing a husband or needing a man.
In the Epstine files. They were vulnerable girls who fell for a powerful promise of a modeling career. Understand as a woman, these Narcissistic predators absolutely see all women as less than them, thereby vulnerable and they do not have a concept of it being wrong to take advantage of you. They dont see the world like we do. Do not project your goodness onto them ever.
You must just learn not to run and get tired but instead to be strong and smart, not to fall for their traps. Sadly, theyll still go only after the most vulnerable of us. If you arent vulnerable, if you arent desperate for love and dating or money, then you can be safer anywhere vs hoping a new community is less of them.
Traffickers are everywhere. You cant escape them. You can outsmart them and learn to stay away from them. You can build a community where upu are that doesnt tolerate that behavior
Spread the word as our ancestors did. Tell young girls the truth about predators. No sugar coating.
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I also think its getting worse globally right now because more women can opt out of marriages and forced sex that way. So men, incels, who cant get women are turning to sex trafficking. Feeding more money amd more flying monkeys into the system to keep building it up
There is no nowhere to go. But you can choose to surround yourself with only us. Ignore them. Go to all female services meaning dentists doctors even small businesses owned by us. Pretend they do not exist and always carry something to defend your body (they tend everywhere in the world to attack it if you dont wanna be their slave)
Focus on the women and community. Thai women will embrace you. And if you're looking for community, as long as you try to speak Thai, it's there. Thai men will harmlessly try to date you (they are generally respectful and direct compared to men in North America). They basically open with "do you have a boyfriend" and if you say yes, they leave you alone. The sexpats are real. Male expats will be the most annoying part of your experience. Ignore them.
I was in Northern Thailand for a time. I never set foot in a large city like Bangkok where expat men flock to. I would avoid places like that.
If you're lucky, you can find an expat women's group. Or you can make one. I found one that met at a café when I was out there.
I find sex tourism and degrading attitudes of western men toward asian women so upsetting.
I always make it a point to be kind and friendly toward local asian women when I travel. I'm well conscious of disparities in affluence and privilege when I'm visiting a developing country. I always try to be a safe and kind presence, and in places like Thailand and Vietnam I've been so moved by the kindness, warmth and hospitality.
It makes me so upset and concerned re the sex tourism, pedophiles, general racism+sexism these women are doubly subjected to.
Not that it's incumbent on you to educate a stranger, but if you feel like replying, do you have any words of advice on how I can further improve my support toward local women?
I'm thinking - to make a point of researching beforehand and specifically going to support female-owned or operated businesses, making sure to tip women extra generously. Any other ways I can be a source of solidarity and support?
Maybe if you move there you can befriend some local women or even join some organization that helps local women so they can leave sex work if they wish.
Don't let men ruin your dreams and turn everything bitter. You can always look for a bright side which is usually sisterhood.
I am from the United States. I am black American. I fantasize about moving to a female only country but it doesn’t exist. I speak relatively good enough Spanish I guess I could immigrate to a Latin American country but my overall goal right now is to get my own property in the U.S. since I am unable to leave.
I wouldn’t take what some depraved western men wrote to represent the whole country. Do you know any Thai people? I would try to find some online and maybe ask them some questions about how life is like for women in Thailand. If you do move there you’re going to be dealing with the local population much more than the gross expat population.
I did and even some of those men were in these subreddits for queer people and women...
Literally every episode of 90 day fiancé 😩