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NewsR.I.P Skyline Emulator (self.Android)

Cebuc23 が 投稿

From a post made by Skyline developer:

Hello,

It is with great sadness that we bring you this news. Recently, Nintendo has issued a DMCA takedown notice against Lockpick RCM which will likely come into effect on Monday, Lockpick is a core part of legally dumping keys from the Switch. They claim that it circumvents their copy protection (TPMs) and therefore violates their copyright. We find ourselves in a position where we are potentially violating their copyright by continuing to develop our project, Skyline, by dumping keys from our own Switches.

After much internal discussion, we have made the difficult decision to immediately cease all further development on Skyline. We understand that this is not the news our community wanted to hear, and we are heartbroken to have to deliver it. The risks associated with a potential legal case are too high for us to ignore, and we cannot continue knowing that we may be in violation of copyright law. We would like to emphasize that we were entirely unaware of these potential legal issues before, and we fully believed that dumping keys was legal prior to this notice. Despite this, Skyline itself is entirely legal and we won't be taking down the repository (it will be made read-only) or builds. In addition, all incomplete source code for texman and nnvk will be made public.

We want to take this opportunity to thank our community for their years of support. The development of Skyline has been an amazing journey, and we are grateful for all the support we have received from our users. We understand that the emulator is not where we ultimately wanted it to be, but we could not have made it this far without your dedication and enthusiasm. We hope that our community understands the difficult position we have been placed in, we thank you all for everything Skyline was and wish it didn't have to end so abruptly... ❤️

Sincerely, Mark, Billy, and the Skyline Team

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[–]BlueSwordMStupid smooth Lenovo Z6 90Hz Overclocked Screen + Axon 7 3350mAh 340 ポイント341 ポイント  (36子コメント)

Very weird. It should be fully legal to extract keys from your machine considering previous legal precedent.

Edit: There are a lot of responses, so let's explain what I initially thought when I wrote "previous legal precedent".

Copying the files from one format to another is called space shifting. This is legal in many places around the world, including Canada and Ocenia. It is in a grey area in the USA however.

The issue is in this case is that DRM circumvention is only explicitely protected in Oceania countries. In the US and Canada, it is currently not the case in an explicit manner.

Since Switch games have DRM integrated, then circumventing them is in a legal grey zone, not based on a fully legal precedent.

My initial statement was based on my knowledge of legal emulation and Canadian law, on which I was wrong for the latter.

[–]FurbyTimeGalaxy S23+ 277 ポイント278 ポイント  (20子コメント)

It should be fully legal

The problem with the US legal system now is that this really doesn't matter. You can sue for anything, and as long as you have the money to burn, you can basically bury the other side and "win" no matter the actual law.

And even more in this case; the guys who got the DCMA aren't going to be willing to go to court over this, and never are. So, they'll comply, and then the issue is resolved in the eyes of the court.

[–]_rdaneel_ 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I wish I could argue with any of what you said, but you're right.

Source: am American litigation attorney.

[–]JamesR624 25 ポイント26 ポイント  (0子コメント)

US law has been Pay to Win for decades.

Anyone arguing that this wont work is hopelessly naive about how the law actually works, compared to how it says it works.

[–][deleted] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

someone from china or russia will pick up the work

[–]GoneCollarGonePixel 2 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

What precedent?

[–]Rhed0xHobby app dev 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (10子コメント)

Legal precedent?

[–]Tostino 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (9子コメント)

Our courts don't give a shit about that in the US at this point.

[–]Rhed0xHobby app dev 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (8子コメント)

Is there legal precedent for extracting keys in the first place?

[–]sethayy 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (7子コメント)

I believe they mean because of emulators as a whole, which have almost always required dumping something from a real console that you own. I believe specifically keys since at least the 3ds era.

Tho the big one is dumping the games themselves, as they are copyright - but otherwise emulators sole purpose would be nefarious, by extension making them (again I believe).

[–]GoneCollarGonePixel 2 -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (6子コメント)

I don't believe there has ever been a case establishing emulators as legal. I doubt anyone has a license to make a "copy" of a video game anyways. I think it just comes down to whether or not a company like Nintendo cares about setting their lawyers loose or not.

[–]votemarvel 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (1子コメント)

There has. Look up Sony vs Bleem! and Connectix. The difference there though was that neither emulator used any Sony code in order to work.

[–]GoneCollarGonePixel 2 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ah, didn't know that. Thanks 👍

[–]Tiny-Sandwich 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I think there was a precedent set when Sony tried to sue the creators of an emulator and lost.

IIRC that pretty much opened the doors for all emulators.

[–]sethayy 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

And cases like this because the emulator dev process has always required cracking open a real device

[–]Natanael_LXperia 1 III (main), Samsung S9, TabPro 8.4 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

IBM clones is how the PC market got started

[–]GoneCollarGonePixel 2 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, as others have pointed out via the Sony case, it seems emulators are legal as long as they don't share the same code.

Games, however I'm sure are a different story. Unless someone is making an entirely different game, albeit with similarities, like the clones of "three's" in the app store, that's gotta be textbook copyright infringement.

[–]mrt-e 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You own nothing and will be happy

[–]dustojnikhummerXiaomi Poco F3 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Why? Because Nintendo don't give a shit. They can do anything because they know nobody will stand up.

[–]See_A_Squared 241 ポイント242 ポイント  (11子コメント)

This is Nintendo trying to be assholes because of TOTK leaks huh. The company has no right to issue takedowns on software that dump legal keys from people's Switch. The DMCA is unlawful and a violation of fair use.

[–]TheWorldisFullofWarS20 FE 5G 105 ポイント106 ポイント  (1子コメント)

If they resist, the US has more laws they can throw at them. Gary Bowser had 11 bullshit charges against him, which they got down to 2 bullshit charges with negotiations. Complying with DMCA is like a slap on the wrist compared to what Nintendo can and has done in the past. Best bet is to wait for a Russian team to takeover. US laws have zero presence there.

[–]dustojnikhummerXiaomi Poco F3 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

And they completely destroyed his life

[–]Gyossaits 28 ポイント29 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Nintendo Pinkertons.

[–]Put_It_All_On_BlckS23U 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Nintendo has always been an awful company if people take off their rose tinted nostalgia glasses. This isn't the first time Nintendo has been dicks, and their poor reputation isn't limited to emulators and unauthorized IP use.

[–]NotTooDistantFuture 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (2子コメント)

What does this even mean? Fair use isn’t in the constitution. New laws supersede other laws all the time.

Now, we can talk about what the law should be. Much of the retro emulator problem can be solved if we revert to the original 14 year limit for copyright. The original Mario game should be public domain by now.

[–]ZagorathPixel 6 Pro 18 ポイント19 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I think when they said

The DMCA is unlawful and a violation of fair use.

They meant

This DMCA takedown request is a violation of fair use.

And not, as you seem to have interpreted it.

The Digital Millenium Copyright Act is itself a violation of the Fair Use doctrine outlined in the Copyright Act.

[–]GoneCollarGonePixel 2 -5 ポイント-4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't see how anything here could be remotely considered "fair use"

[–]Dessum 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Which is 100% of the reason I chose to grab the leak. They reap what they sow.

[–]GoneCollarGonePixel 2 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

dump legal keys

Explain?

[–]MangoScangoPixel 6 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I hear what you're saying, but the term "fair use" only exists as an explicit carve out of the DMCA. The DMCA is not the problem here, Nintendo's bad faith suits are.

[–]Bedcool128 41 ポイント42 ポイント  (8子コメント)

i hope dolphin emulator doesnt get dmca

[–]Rhed0xHobby app dev 29 ポイント30 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Wii games aren't encrypted, so Dolphin is fine.

[–]Outside_Money_1786 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Dolphin is about as compatible as it's ever likely ro be so a takedown would make little difference as the genie is already out of the bottle with that emulator. Skyline was/is in its infancy though so any takedown would stop it dead with bearly a handful of games that it can competently run. I might just buy a gaming pc capable of emulating switch out of pure spite as emulation on that platform is a lot more advanced and unlikely to be affected by anything Nintendo throw at it. Maybe it's time to offer up the source code and allow the community to continue to work on the Android version as you can't realy stop individuals online from completing a project......I mean not me obviously I probbaly couldn't even program a vcr lol

[–]Michael7x12 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

It's open source, so you can do that if you have the know-how

[–]Outside_Money_1786 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't have the know how. Ironically all those that piss and whine about emulation don't either. Funny how it's always the most entitled that contribute the least

[–]shellshock321Huawei Mate 20 x 29 ポイント30 ポイント  (2子コメント)

RIP legendary Emulator.

I bought the Huawei Mate 20 x partially to play big ass games on my phone.

[–]XSykiaX 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Love that phone and in the process to own one. Already own S23 Ultra and ZF4 but love that Mate 20X.

[–]shellshock321Huawei Mate 20 x 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I really wish we got another gigantic ass phone

[–]Never_Sm1lePoco X3 Pro|Mi Pad 4 24 ポイント25 ポイント  (3子コメント)

The totk leaks drive Nintendo mad. Oh well, guess we have to wait until they stop caring about switch

[–]FartsWithAnAccent 29 ポイント30 ポイント  (12子コメント)

Fuck Nintendo, glad I bought a Steam Deck

[–]Reddish_Blue92 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (9子コメント)

Did the exact same thing.. FUCK NINTENDO

[–]FartsWithAnAccent 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (8子コメント)

Steam Deck is better in every way

[–]GS_Champ_Aliassime -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (7子コメント)

Idk the screen of the Deck is simply too shitty. Even if you compare it to the base Switch.

[–]vainsilverNexus 6P 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (6子コメント)

The Deck has a higher resolution display. The pixel density is much better on the Deck.

[–]GS_Champ_Aliassime -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Haha lol if you want believe that.

https://www.reddit.com/r/SteamDeck/comments/ta6wxf /why_is_the_screen_so_bad/

[–]vainsilverNexus 6P 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

It’s not even an opinion. The Deck objectively has a higher resolution display.

That link is not relevant at all.

[–]GS_Champ_Aliassime -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Ok dude

https://thegamingsetup.com/steam-deck-resolution-guide#:~:text=What's%20the%20Steam%20Deck's%20resolution,universal%2016%3A9%20in%20gaming.

https://www.nintendo.com/switch/tech-specs/#switch-section

The screen of the SteamDeck has basically the same 720p resolution on a worse color spectrum.

We don't even need to compare it to the Switch Oled screen.

[–]vainsilverNexus 6P 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Those are two different resolutions. 800p is not the same as 720p. They’re not even the same aspect ratios.

Read your own links if you’re going to post them, dude.

[–]dustojnikhummerXiaomi Poco F3 -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

What is this guy smoking. 1280x720 vs 1280x800... he is saying that like the Deck had a 1440p display lol. Whole 80 pixels of height more

[–]dustojnikhummerXiaomi Poco F3 -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

800p is still 720p just with a different aspect ratio

[–]StanleyOparDevice, Software !! 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hear hear. At least I can enjoy a locked framerate unlike the actual switch

[–]Old_Administration80 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The skyline team is being very cautious. It's sad but the bright side is the code is still available :) Hopefully, we start seeing some forks and progress by other awesome talented people.

[–][deleted] 59 ポイント60 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Release the code. Open source it. Use pseudonyms. Don't let them win.

[–]problemsnotproblems 111 ポイント112 ポイント  (2子コメント)

It's open source https://github.com/skyline-emu/skyline

[–]when-the-what-is-wha 51 ポイント52 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I've been thinking about this since I heard they're stopping development. So does this mean that people outside the core team can continue working on skyline?

[–]techraitoPixel 6 42 ポイント43 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Can't wait for the new LandCurve emulator

[–]NMDA01 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Code is released. Source is open. They did.

Now what.

[–]Boxcow45 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I still urge the community to stick around. The Skyline Team is working on their next project. Don't know if it's switch related but they have my support.

[–]TechTalkfGalaxy S22 Ultra, OneUI 5.1 (Android 13), Galaxy Watch4 Classic 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (21子コメント)

Fuck Nintendo. I literally just bought a Switch OLED 3 days ago because a lot of the games I wanted to play don't work on Skyline, I'm considering returning it now for a Steam Deck or something else. This was completely uncalled for.

[–]NMDA01 -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well if you were pirating your games beforehand then they don't care about you, and this move further validates them.

[–]magusonline 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Just buy a non-OLED used and the money doesn't go to Nintendo.

[–]GS_Champ_Aliassime 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Eh no Nintendo still got their money from the first purchase. You are basically paying a guy for paying Nintendo if you buy it used. Doesn't matter tbh.

[–]LukeyWolfS23 Ultra 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Nintendo being assholes... again

[–]infinitemover91 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yepp. They always do this..

[–]DethMagnetic 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

What is stopping Nintendo from doing the same with Yuzu or any other switch emulator?

[–]StanleyOparDevice, Software !! 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hopefully someone will fork it and continue

[–]ngwooPixel 6a 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Nintendo should fuck off. If it doesn't use any of their code, they should have no right to take it down.

If Nintendo doesn't care about the law when it comes to this sort of thing nobody else should care about the law when it comes to pirating their games.

[–]m1ndwipeGalaxy S20, Xperia 5iii 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

That is... absolutely not what the DMCA says.

[–]genediesel 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (22子コメント)

What is Skyline and what is "extracting keys" from the Switch? Can someone summarize what this even is?

[–]XPGamingYTiPhone 13 Pro, Galaxy S22 Ultra 24 ポイント25 ポイント  (14子コメント)

spoonfed version:

skyline is a nintendo switch emulator.

switch games are locked (encrypted) with a key meaning you can only play them on a switch

you can take out the key from your own switch so that you can emulate switch games

the most popular method for taking that key from your switch is now being sued basically (except not really, just a DMCA, but sue is an easier word)

[–]genediesel -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

The post said it was legal though, and that explanation sounds illegal.

[–]XPGamingYTiPhone 13 Pro, Galaxy S22 Ultra 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (1子コメント)

additional context:

people have long established (with legal precedent) that taking keys from your console is legal, but uploading these keys isn't

nintendo doesn't agree, and no one has the funds to fight them on that, so it's now illegal. kinda. just technically.

[–]m1ndwipeGalaxy S20, Xperia 5iii 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is completely wrong.

Producing, distributing and often importing software intended to break a "technical protection measure" is prohibited by section 1201 of the DMCA and this is very well established.

Similar anti-circumvention laws exist in almost every country in the world due to international treaty requirements.

No piracy is required to enable takedown under 1201, literally just a tool to interfere with the TPM against the copyright owner's wishes, so at least in the US the takedown is probably pretty valid (this is more complex with some of the international equivalents but not really relevant here).

The Bleem judgement that is the US basis for believing emulation to be legal didn't get as far as examining this point and was heard at a fairly low court. Sony gave up before further precedent was established.

Sending a letter (which is all Nintendo did) does not make something illegal or legal. This ambiguity always existed, but anything that extracts keys is on extremely leaky ground and I'm amazed they ever thought it was unambiguously legal.

[–]bdfull3rPOCO F2 Pro (Global) 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Effectively taking apart hardware or software you own for further private non commercial use is 100% legal according to the US court system. Following that idea, copying code from games you own to play using part of code from a console you also own but for some reason don't want to play said game on directly is allowed. IE ripping the code from game cartridges you physically own to play on emulation software. In the case of the switch you also need to copy a security key you can only get from physical Switch hardware.

Nintendo, and a lot of other companies to be honest, disagree with those previous court rulings and often ignore them. Nintendo are trying to take down the software that would allow someone to retrieve the security key from their personal switch hardware. Small projects like Skyline don't have the resources to fight this in a court battle that would costs $millions to reaffirm what is already precedent. (There is always the possibility said older precedent is thrown out and we risk losing other emulation projects, gaming and others, as collateral. US courts are fickle at best.).

[–]Semont 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Bascially if you're a big enough bully with deep enough pockets, you can make poor people submit because they can't afford to fight a legal battle that they would be able to win otherwise.

[–]NMDA01 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Can I get a IV drip version? Spoon-feeding is too complicated.

[–]XPGamingYTiPhone 13 Pro, Galaxy S22 Ultra 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

switch games only work on switches, but key make switch game play anywhere

can only legally get key from your own switch, but nintendo sued the method for getting key

[–]RememberMeWhenImDeadP30 Pro, K10 -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Skyline is an emulator for the switch, an emulator gives you the ability to make games that only run natively on one device (the switch in this case) run on other devices (in this case, android devices). Games on the switch do a hardware identity check to make sure they're running on a switch, the hardware identity check is done by checking if your "key" (string of numbers that it checks against, similar to credit card numbers, each switch has a unique identifier) if you want to run an emulator you have to have access to those keys to give them to the emulator so that the games can check and make sure that the device you're playing on is a switch. It doesn't care what the hardware is, the only thing it knows is if those keys are in the correct location. If you want to emulate things in a legal manner, you have to use the keys from your personal switch. Legally there's nothing wrong with playing games you own on a different device, but Nintendo has enough money and lawyers to argue that playing a game that you bought from them on your switch is the only way to play the game, and playing it on any other device is both piracy and illegal, despite the switch being underpowered and many first party games being terribly optimized

[–]magusonline 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Can this still be downloaded and used for the older builds? I am out of the country when I saw this message

[–]reddit_reaperPixel 2 XL 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Exactly why you should develop in completely anonyminity. VPN for all git uploads and all traffic using the internet from your dev pc.

[–]WhtSqurlPrnc 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

From now on, I will might pirate every nintendo game I can.

[–]Relative-Category-64 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

No idea why didn't just pass it off to developers in Trinidad or some shit who don't give a flying shit about Nintendo lawsuits